Author Topic: When does the BREAK begin?  (Read 8936 times)

Steven

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When does the BREAK begin?
« on: July 21, 2012, 11:12:01 PM »
As per Rule 19, a new hand applies to the next level after the clock reaches zero AND the TD announces the next level.

But what about the BREAK. Does the TD need to announce it?

For example, if the clock goes to zero and the break timer then starts, and if the TD has not announced the BREAK, but the dealer then begins the next riffle, should the hand proceed?

I don't see this situation addressed in the TDA rules. As such, I think that if the clock goes to zero, no new hand should start, even if the break announcement hasn't been made.

Of course, the table needs to have eye contact with the clock and the start of the riffle in order to ascertain the timing.

Thoughts?


K-Lo

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Re: When does the BREAK begin?
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2012, 08:50:02 AM »
Theoretically, I think the break can be treated as a "level" itself.  Therefore, dealers should continue to deal until the TD announces the break (or had already announced that players are going on break after completion of the hand during the last minute of the previous level).  Depending on the size of the tournament and the availability of clock displays, this helps to avoid situations where some tables may play extra hands, due to clocks being unsychronized for example.  I think that it would be a bit dangerous for a dealer to unilaterally send their players on a break - if in doubt, the dealer could always confirm with the floor whether to start a new hand.  I have seen instances where players went on break prematurely because the table was following the wrong clock, or when the TD made a rare decision to play through the break.

That being said, in reality, it is more common to see players leave the table when it appears that a break is imminent (the infamous bathroom rush) and in some venues, the TDs are not in the habit of announcing the break. So I think it will depend on the venue as to whether you should wait for a break announcement or not, but I doubt you would want a hard and fast universal rule that says that no new hand should start even if an announcement hasn't been made.

chet

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Re: When does the BREAK begin?
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2012, 11:42:50 AM »
IMHO, there are way too many variables from event to event to establish a TDA rule.  In addition to the items K-Lo stated, what about events like the WSOP where there are hundreds of tables in play in different rooms, etc.  What do you do if the sound system isn't working in one room, so the TD's announcement isn't heard?

The solution, in my view, is to establish a "House Rule" considering the circumstances at a particular event.  Number of tables, number of locations, is the "official" clock visible from all locations, etc., etc., etc.

In the Native American casino closest to me, they have a clock that is displayed on one of the TV's.  However, the dealers have to rely on the audio announcements because the way the room is set up every dealer has their back to the wall and cannot see the TV.  Move the TV you say, HA HA HA.

First of all they would have to buy another one and second there is no wall on the other two sides, only a waist high partition separating the Poker Room from the rest of the casino.  Finally the most applicable reason of all, it would cost money and they aren't going to spend one damn dime for something like that.

Brian Vickers

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Re: When does the BREAK begin?
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2012, 12:50:06 PM »
If you are lucky enough to be in a room with Bravo, we use the voice announcement that accompanies the clock.  It will say "you are now on break" i believe.  If the dealer has already pressed the green button on the shuffler, then the dealer will deal another hand out, otherwise, they finish the hand they are on and take a break.  Sometimes a long hand will cut into a player's break, but the timer is still running.

Spence

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Re: When does the BREAK begin?
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2012, 08:29:02 PM »
If the hand has been started but substantial action has not occured then the hand can be called dead. Once substantial action has taken place the hand must be completed.

Nick C

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Re: When does the BREAK begin?
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2012, 08:11:07 PM »
Spence,

 If the dealer started dealing, (IMO) the hand should be played out. How do you tell the player that was dealt pocket aces that the hand will not be played out?

chet

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Re: When does the BREAK begin?
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2012, 08:29:12 PM »
I agree with K-Lo and Nick on this one.  The "Break" can be treated just like a change in levels, ie the new hand starts with the first riffle or when the green button is pressed for those with shufflers.  If the Break is called for before either of those actions occur, the game stops.  If the Break is called for, after either of those two actions occur, the hand is completed and those players then go on Break for whatever time remains before the start of the next level.  We don't need to make this any more complicated.

That said, if room/venues would have their own rules covering these kinds of situations, things would be much simpler.  Remember, the TDA Rules are not intended to be all encompassing, they are intended to supplement the rules of individual rooms/venues.

Chet
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 08:30:33 PM by chet »

Spence

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Re: When does the BREAK begin?
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2012, 09:07:54 PM »
Spence,

 If the dealer started dealing, (IMO) the hand should be played out. How do you tell the player that was dealt pocket aces that the hand will not be played out?
Oops! I misread the example. My answer is for if the dealer started dealing a hand after the break had been called. In the event that the break was known to have started and the dealer dealt another hand I would misdeal it if no substantial action has occurred. Just as a note I would only do this in a multi table tournament as fairness to the other competitors. If there was a single table left I would have the dealer complete the hand no matter the circumstance, as Nick suggests.

ew2484

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Re: When does the BREAK begin?
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2012, 12:14:57 AM »
Our tournaments treat the break as another level. IF the dealer already pressed the green button or started the riffle, they play the hand. Our system does not have any sound, so we train the dealers not to change levels or start breaks or dealing after breaks until it is announced by a TD.

Stuart Murray

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Re: When does the BREAK begin?
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2012, 05:20:08 AM »
I treat the break as a level change also, I have the benefit of an excellent announcement system which, when the break time commences announces "poker players, there will now be a short break, once the current hand is complete, please leave your chips at the table, and vacate the card room."

Kind of hard to miss such a long announcement, couples with the "next increase" red clock on screen changing to a blue "break time" countdown.

Stuart

K-Lo

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Re: When does the BREAK begin?
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2012, 08:07:56 AM »
Nice Stuart, which system are you using?

Stuart Murray

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Re: When does the BREAK begin?
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2012, 08:21:08 AM »
I use 2 softwares, cardroomMAGIC and The Tournament Director, with the latter I did a substantial bit of cloning it, to look and feel the same as the prior.

Stu