Author Topic: Verbal raise amount inconsistent with previous betting  (Read 11868 times)

K-Lo

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Verbal raise amount inconsistent with previous betting
« on: September 21, 2012, 08:26:52 PM »
Blinds are 200/400.  UTG +1 goes all in for 8000.  The player pushes all the chips into the middle of the table, and the dealer had announced all-in.  Action folds to the button who says "raise 1100".  How do you rule?

As I understand it, from our recent discussions, possible decisions can range from allowing the player to take back his 1100 and reconsider his actions (gross misunderstanding), to forcing a minimum raise (per verbal announcement of raise), or something in between (e.g. 1100 stays in the pot, can top up to a call or fold).

I believe the current trend is towards the last option, although I am somewhat hesitant to do so in this case given that the all-in was clearly visible to the player, and for that reason, i would lean towards holding him to a minimum raise.  Thoughts?

Luca P.

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Re: Verbal raise amount inconsistent with previous betting
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2012, 03:40:27 AM »
It's clearly a min raise here. by "action folds to the button who says "raise 1100"" I assume other players (even only 1 player) acted (folded) so the all-in was clearly visible to all players even to the button.
Also the button's action was not the subsequent action of the 8000 all-in.
So no way he can take his chips back or leave 1100 into the pot, I must min raise to 15.600
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Stuart Murray

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Re: Verbal raise amount inconsistent with previous betting
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2012, 05:41:22 AM »
It depends on your rules, if your solely basing it on TDA rules then yes, he can retract and re-consider his actions.  My rules require the the button player to leave in the 1,500 as he was not paying attention, to penalise him further (by making him put in 15,600) is not in the best interests of the tournament and fairness IMO - he said "raise 1,100" not "raise to 1,100" or "raise to 1,100 total" so it's 400+1,100.  In my book he can then either a) call the 8,000 total or b) fold, leaving the 1,500 in the middle.

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Stuart
« Last Edit: September 22, 2012, 05:44:33 AM by Stuart Murray »

Nick C

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Re: Verbal raise amount inconsistent with previous betting
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2012, 06:11:34 AM »
Gentlemen:

 If that's not a gross misunderstanding, I don't know what is. I would allow the player the option to retract his 1100. I've never been in favor of forcing a player to win, or lose, because of an obvious misunderstanding.

 I'm not sure what TDA rule Stuart is referring to, but I agree it is not in the best interest of the game to force a player to a 15,000 + wager. I also don't like forcing the player to even commit to the 1100. The way I see it; one player mistake should not give more chips to an undeserving opponent that could alter the outcome of the tournament.

K-Lo

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Re: Verbal raise amount inconsistent with previous betting
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2012, 08:06:25 AM »
But I guess the opposing argument would be that the player should be paying attention -- a raise is a raise.  There is no Rule #1 issue, strictly speaking, because the dealer announced all-in and the wager was clearly visible.  My "deaf person" rule so to speak - he can see the raise clearly, so there is no excuse for not paying attention, and there is no one else to blame.


Nick C

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Re: Verbal raise amount inconsistent with previous betting
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2012, 02:53:51 PM »
Okay, it's time to open a real can of worms...who decided "verbal is binding" as the best way to determine a bet or raise ? ;D

Tristan

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Re: Verbal raise amount inconsistent with previous betting
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2012, 07:22:56 PM »
I would allow the player to retract their verbal, because it was not a valid bet.  I would treat it like saying "I bet pot" in a no-limit game or "I put him all-in".  They are not valid bets and the hopefully the dealer quickly points that out.

With that being said, there are a few things that could sway my decision.  If the player said "raise", paused, and then said an amount...I would bind him to a raise.  Or if he threw in chips, I would bind those chips to the pot.
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WSOPMcGee

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Re: Verbal raise amount inconsistent with previous betting
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2012, 02:50:01 AM »
The player said "RAISE". Whatever comes out his/her mouth after that word is secondary. It's kinda like saying "I Do" and "til death do us part". Whatever someone says after "I Do" becomes secondary  ;D

I see people using the phrase "Gross Misunderstanding" in this thread which actually delights me a bit. However, this is using it in the wrong context. "Gross Misunderstanding" is for use in the accepted action rule, #41.

This player would be binded to the minimum raise. Pay attention players. It's not our duty to bail you out. We are not the Gov't. Just the judge and jury. No trial I've ever been a part of allowed me to claim ignorance or "I didn't know" as a reason to be exonerated.

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Nick C

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Re: Verbal raise amount inconsistent with previous betting
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2012, 10:16:41 AM »
Thomas,

 How would you rule if the player said " make it 1100"?

WSOPMcGee

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Re: Verbal raise amount inconsistent with previous betting
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2012, 01:01:27 PM »
Thomas,

 How would you rule if the player said " make it 1100"?

I'd rule the player would be bound to the 1,100 and would left with the option to call 8,000 or fold.

I know what you're getting at. That the phrase "make it" and the word "raise" should be the same. Even though they mean similar things, they are not equal. "Make it" establishes an amount. "Raise" establishes an action.

I don't like the phrase "Make it". It allows the player to angle. Many times I've heard players say "Make it zero" and fold. Or, when they are facing a bet, for example facing a 500 bet, they say, "Make it 500" and then call. Also this phrase is not an established poker term. Much like phrases, "Take it up" or "I"m gonna bump it" or "Let's hit it (again)" or giving the dealer the 'Thumbs up' sign. Even though we know what the player is probably going to do, we're stilling left waiting for the completion of the intention.

Contrary, the word "raise" removes all doubt. They are raising the bet.
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WSOPMcGee

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Re: Verbal raise amount inconsistent with previous betting
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2012, 02:26:35 PM »
Very tricky Mr. Nick.

Dragged me into this thread without me knowing about it.

Good one sir!
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Nick C

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Re: Verbal raise amount inconsistent with previous betting
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2012, 06:12:11 PM »
Thomas,

 All I'm trying to do is take the guess work out of poker rules. I don't think the rules should be written to give the floor a "way out." They should be clear and easy to understand. Use specific examples (when needed) if we must.

 I respect your opinion and like some suggested changes that you mention in R.O.P.E.

 It's always good to hear from you on the Forum. Try not to stay away so long.

K-Lo

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Re: Verbal raise amount inconsistent with previous betting
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2012, 04:12:32 PM »
Very tricky Mr. Nick.

Dragged me into this thread without me knowing about it.

Good one sir!

I agree.  Reverse psychology, to get Thomas to agree with us, in action.  :)