Author Topic: bubble payout  (Read 6416 times)

diz475

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bubble payout
« on: July 17, 2012, 01:23:54 PM »
In the WSOP they did hand for hand at 669 players when paying 666, 4 players busted on 4 different tables (I assume), they all split 666th place for 4800 each.

I know the subject was talked about at the 2011 summit and they could not get a good vote. So it must need more discussion before the next time.

I believe Matt & Linda wore both on the side of in the situation of hand for hand multiple players bust on multiple tables they split the prize money for the last payout spot (regardless of  the players chip count)
If multiple players bust on the same table then chip count will be used to determine the higher spot.


.I don’t see why you wouldn’t use chip count all the time its what I do now (and yes I am usually only doing hand for hand on 2 tables not 75 ) I just have to have the dealer make sure they are getting a good chip count on any at risk player



Brian Vickers

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Re: bubble payout
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2012, 01:42:54 PM »
I'm a little confused why hand-for-hand was chosen to be done at 669 remaining and not 667.  Is this common at the WSOP and larger tournaments, that hand-for-hand takes place a few spots away from the bubble?  Does it start one table away or 3 players away or what?  Or was it at 75 tables left (675 players) playing down to 74 tables?  Just wondering how it came to be 669.

I believe the consensus was that they would split the prize amount if they were on different tables.  IIRC this was because comaring chip stacks isn't fair if you can't compare the hands that knocked each player out as well.  Something to that effect.  WSOP McGee has a great novel written about it in one of these threads ::)   

Also, I agree with split the prize pool on multiple tables.

diz475

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Re: bubble payout
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2012, 12:31:04 PM »
so brian would you also agree with it if you were paying say 15 and your hand for hand was only on 2 tables.

2 players bust on the same table chip high chip count gets 15th place but 1 player from each of the tables thay split 15th place.

Spence

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Re: bubble payout
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2012, 08:25:10 PM »
The issue here is that one player is not competing against the other so comparing chip stacks makes no sense. At my last property, we ran smaller tournaments and in order to avoid this we would go hand for hand at the bubble plus the number of competing tables. Rarely did we have tournaments paying more than 20 players and having that extra bit of wiggle room was nice just in case. It didn't really solve anything in the case of starting hand for hand at 23 then having 2 single knockouts and a triple but it fooled everyone into a false state of security.
The only logical and fair way to go about the payout process is to chop. Rarely will the dealer be worried about a chip count unless it looks close. If you had the table chip leader take out a small stack on three different tables at the same time then you'd never know what the stack size was. Unless you want to add another rule in that states "any player who is all-in and is eliminated when play is hand for hand must have a proper and definite chip count made by the TD before the hand is resolved" seems like a lot of taxing work.

Brian Vickers

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Re: bubble payout
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2012, 10:14:35 AM »
so brian would you also agree with it if you were paying say 15 and your hand for hand was only on 2 tables.

2 players bust on the same table chip high chip count gets 15th place but 1 player from each of the tables thay split 15th place.


Yes I agree with this.  If there were 16 players left and 15 were getting paid, and two players went out on different tables they would split 15th place. 
Also, if there were 15 players left and 15 were getting paid, and two players went out on different tables they would split 14th and 15th places as evenly as possible.

As Spence said, it's because the hands don't match up against eachother and don't play out on the same board, so the chipstacks shouldn't either.  If I am the shortest stack but have my A-A cracked on table 1 and another player loses with Q-Q to K-K, I would have survived against those players but now I am getting the lowest payout?  Chopping it is the fairest way.

diz475

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Re: bubble payout
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2012, 01:50:16 PM »
but if you were the second big stack and your AA got cracked and the short stack all in in the bb on the other table goes out with his 7-2 to kk the 72 guy gets half.

chet

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Re: bubble payout
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2012, 04:21:41 PM »
Yep, that is the way it is.  The AA player might have had 15 or more BB and the 7-2 just 1 or 2.  Chip counts do not matter for Bubble payments when players are not at the same table.  Might not be the way you want it, but that is how it is.  I don't like the speed limit in some places I drive, but if I exceed it and get caught, that is the way it is.

That said, your gaming control agency may have some different rules regarding payouts, you need to follow those rules even if they contradict the "norm", RROP or TDA Rules.

Chet

JasperToo

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Re: bubble payout
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2012, 06:12:45 PM »
diz, let me see if I can run the logic through for you...

if the AA and the 7-2 (these specific hands don't matter by the way) are at the same table and they are both eleminated, the stack size comes to play because they playing against the same opponent.  At least, that is the only thing I can see that makes a difference.

The AA at one table goes against a big stack and gets beat by a different opponent then the 7-2 short stack on a different table, they split the prize because they are eliminated at the same time by different opponents.   

That's how I have approached it in my head, perhaps someone else has the real reason or at least a better reason..

Chet's approach is ok in my book too.  That's the way it is!!

Stuart Murray

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Re: bubble payout
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2012, 02:53:23 AM »
^^ what jasper and Chet say

diz475

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Re: bubble payout
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2012, 01:12:16 PM »
ok i see what you guys are saying and some make sense except for (thats the way it is)
i had never herd of it untill i seen the summit video. i thought using chip count was the standard

why was it so hard for them to get a vote on this at the tda summit in 2011.
and thats why i put it on here i would like to here from some others that were against it at the summit

i would still rather use the chip count, yes i have to have a chip count on all at risk players but i think dealers can handle that durring hand for hand

Spence

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Re: bubble payout
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2012, 05:29:08 PM »
I'm not sure if anyone will know but are the chip counts used for online tournaments? I would imagine so and have been hand for hand in several online tournaments but never ended up seeing a situation where several players are eliminated at different tables on the bubble.
Anyone have anything definite?

K-Lo

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Re: bubble payout
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2012, 06:10:07 AM »
I'm not sure if anyone will know but are the chip counts used for online tournaments? I would imagine so and have been hand for hand in several online tournaments but never ended up seeing a situation where several players are eliminated at different tables on the bubble.
Anyone have anything definite?

Spence - I'm 99.99% sure that PStars uses chip counts to break the tie even when multiple players bust during hand-for-hand.  I haven't seen what happens though if two players are tied for last and eliminated on the same hand.


WSOPMcGee

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Re: bubble payout
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2012, 04:49:45 AM »
Diz475,

Surprised no one brought up this thread. http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=281.0
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Tristan

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Re: bubble payout
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2012, 12:29:03 PM »
i would still rather use the chip count, yes i have to have a chip count on all at risk players but i think dealers can handle that durring hand for hand

Hand for hand can be very time consuming as it is, making the dealers slow down the process even more doesn't seem like the best idea to me.

I agree with splitting for multiple table bust-outs.
Tristan
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