Author Topic: Balancing Tables - Clarification  (Read 25162 times)

Nick C

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Re: Balancing Tables - Clarification
« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2012, 10:52:02 AM »
Chet,
 That is the reason I take the under the gun +1 and move him to the new table. If there is any stall it should not take two hands to complete the move. You're right, there is no way that everyone will agree. How can we when very few can understand the rule, as written?

K-Lo

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Re: Balancing Tables - Clarification
« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2012, 09:43:16 PM »
Ok... Excuse me while I beat this dead horse, so to speak...

8 handed table, all 8 seats are occupied.

Button in seat 1, small blind seat 2, big blind seat 3.

a) Hand is played out, and the players in seats 3 and 6 bust.  Player is brought in to balance the tables before next hand begins.  Where is the button, where does the new player go (seat 3 or seat 6), and who posts the blind(s) for the next hand?

IF you sat the new player in seat 3 in question a), then answer the next question.

b) The next hand is played out and the Big Blind busts out.  Another player is brought in to balance the tables, before the next hand begins.  Where is the button, where does this new player go, and who posts the blind(s) for the next hand?

Nick C

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Re: Balancing Tables - Clarification
« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2012, 09:33:54 AM »
K-Lo,

 a)  Button to seat 2, dead SB in seat 3, BB in seat 4, new player in seat 6.

 b)  Dead Button seat 3, Dead SB seat 4, BB seat 5, new player occupies the dead button position in seat 3 and must sit out one hand.

You've got me thinking too much, take it easy on me will ya! ;D I probably screwed something up again.

chet

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Re: Balancing Tables - Clarification
« Reply #33 on: July 05, 2012, 10:16:35 AM »
Nick:  You need to re-read the 2nd situation again.  K-Lo said IF you put the new player in seat 3 in part a, then.......

You said that there is a dead button in seat 3, but that seat is occupied (it can still be a dead button).  Where I have a problem is that you said you would put the new player in seat 3.  Is he going to sit on the existing players lap?  How do you enforce the one player to a hand rule?  If I am the existing player in seat 3 and your bring over someone like Vanessa Rousso, she can sit on my lap anytime. :) 

Chet

K-Lo

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Re: Balancing Tables - Clarification
« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2012, 11:04:38 AM »
I understood what Nick meant - he just answered the question for b) even though he didn't have to.

Nick's method is consistent with the way that I am accustomed to doing it -- the "classic way" as it were.

Now let's hear from someone who does it the other way...
« Last Edit: July 05, 2012, 12:36:56 PM by K-Lo »

Nick C

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Re: Balancing Tables - Clarification
« Reply #35 on: July 05, 2012, 12:04:08 PM »
Chet & K-Lo,
 
 The way I see it, there's the wrong way and our way.

 Chet, I brought the player to seat 6 in the first scenario, so seat 3 is empty.

diz475

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Re: Balancing Tables - Clarification
« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2012, 08:00:31 PM »
ok K-lo a little extreme here for one thing you are very fast at getting new players to a game before a dealer can get out the next hand

 but i would put the new player in seat 3 for A and if i go buy the rule seat 3 for B because,
the rule is will be moved to the worst position, including taking a single big blind when available, even if that means the seat will have the big blind twice

dont you agree that if your senario if you put the new player in the 6 seat, next hand seat 2 button (last action) seat 3 dead small seat 4 BB
next hand dead button in seat 3 seat 2 still last action

if i moved a player and put him in seat 3 he posts a single bb because it is available, even it that means the seat will have the big blind twice seat 2 is the button(last action) seat 3 big
next hand button stays in seat 2 still last action, seat 3 small seat 4 big

K-Lo

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Re: Balancing Tables - Clarification
« Reply #37 on: July 05, 2012, 09:38:11 PM »
Diz - So you sit the new player in seat 3, he is BB, seat 2 has the button, and there is no seat for the SB. 

Let's say that on the very next hand, seat 3, who just got seated as the BB, busts.  So am I correct to characterize your position as being that if another new player is brought in before the dealer gets out the next hand, the new player sits in seat 3 again (& posts the BB), and the button stays in seat 2 again?


diz475

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Re: Balancing Tables - Clarification
« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2012, 10:04:23 AM »
Yes
Is that any different then a dead button in seat 3, seat 2 is last action both ways and my way or the TDA way the new player is in the worst position, including taking a single big blind when available, even if that means the seat will have the big blind twice(or three times)

buy the TDA saying taking a single big blind even if that means the seat will have the big blind twice
tells me you do not have to have a seat reserved for the small blind

I donít see any other way to interpret the rule

yes you can seat the player in seat 6 but is that the worst position available, No

Nick C

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Re: Balancing Tables - Clarification
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2012, 11:58:07 AM »
diz475,

 I'll admit there are some TDA Rules that I have a tough time figuring out. This is one of them. I do it the way I described because I never had a problem with it, and I understand what I'm doing. How could I move a player to a new seat, at a new table, if I couldn't explain why he's in that seat, or how I justified the move.

 I still don't understand;...even if it means he will have the BB twice ???  I don't want to sound ungrateful but, spare me the explanation, My mind can only digest so much of this critical information ;D 

K-Lo

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Re: Balancing Tables - Clarification
« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2012, 08:25:10 PM »
Yes
Is that any different then a dead button in seat 3, seat 2 is last action both ways and my way or the TDA way the new player is in the worst position, including taking a single big blind when available, even if that means the seat will have the big blind twice(or three times)

buy the TDA saying taking a single big blind even if that means the seat will have the big blind twice
tells me you do not have to have a seat reserved for the small blind

I donít see any other way to interpret the rule

Thanks for the clarification. As I understand it, according to the rule as you interpret it, whenever the button is in seat 2 and seat 3 is empty, you will seat the new player in seat 3 regardless of what other seats at the table might be vacant.  And if on the next hand seat 3 busts, you will seat the next new player again in seat 3, and seat 2 gets the button again.  And theoretically, this could happen two, three, or four or even more times in a row, and every single time, the new player will sit in seat 3, and the button stays in seat 2.  

Here are the reasons I don't prefer this method:

1.  The button can potentially stall in one particular seat and with one particular player.  The potential for this to happen is not as rare as one might think.  In my experience, at late stages of certain tournaments where everyone is very short-stacked, the BB tends to gets eliminated a lot.  Tables can get very short and may be forced to hold until a players is brought in to balance them;  or in smaller venues, it might not take long to move a player from one table to another.  So, if the BB keeps getting eliminated, and if we always place a new player in the same seat, the button will remain with the same player over and over again.  Even if we no longer use a moving button movement, to me, I don't think it's fair to have the button stalled in one seat.

2.  If the intention of the rule is to place a new player in the way you describe, then in my view, the rule should say that the new player "shall take the next vacant seat after the button" and may post a single BB if there are no intervening players between him and the button.  This would be a lot clearer than the vague phrase "worst position at the table".

3. TDA rules also clearly say that tournaments will use a "dead button".  In a dead button movement, "The big blind is posted by the player due for it, and the small blind and button are positioned accordingly, even if this means the small blind or the button is placed in front of an empty seat..." (RROP s.16.1).  If the new player in seat 3 is considered to be the BB, then the SB must be positioned accordingly.  Clearly, seat 2 is not going to be the SB here, after already having posted it.  I disagree that the TDA rule saying "including taking a single big blind when available, even if that means the seat will have the big blind twice" necessarily means that you do not have to have a seat reserved for the small blind.  There is no reason why the balancing rule should take precedence over the dead button rule.  If the balancing rule was meant to override the dead button rule, the rule should say so explicitly.  

4.  Finally, there are still many scenarios where the highlighted wording in the balancing rule comes into play, but the properties of a dead button rotation are still preserved.  Most involve situations where there is at least one existing vacant seat before the player who busts out.  For example:

Seat 1 (occupied)
Seat 2 (occupied-button)
Seat 3 (occupied- SB)
Seat 4 (vacant)
Seat 5 (occupied- BB)
Seat 6 (occupied)
Seat 7 (occupied)
Seat 8 (occupied)

Now, the player in seat 5 busts.  I have absolutely no problem with placing a new player into seat 5 in this situation when balancing, and thus seat 5 will indeed "have the big blind twice".  The button has moved to seat 3, and seat 4 will host the "dead" SB.  Therefore, the button continues to move around the table without stalling, the properties of a dead button rotation are satisfied with the SB in front of an empty seat, and the new player indeed "takes a single BB with the same seat having had the big blind twice", thus satisfying the rule.    

In my opinion, the "worst position" in the balancing rule should never be one which would result in there not being a seat reserved for the small blind.  Seating a new player immediately after the button without the SB being in front of a seat might be the "progressive" way, but not the optimal way, in my view.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 08:35:22 PM by K-Lo »

Nick C

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Re: Balancing Tables - Clarification
« Reply #41 on: July 07, 2012, 01:25:41 AM »
K-Lo,

  Your suggestion makes the situation simple to understand. It is certainly worth repeating, so I will:... " the rule should say that the new player "shall take the next vacant seat after the button" and may post a single BB if there are no intervening players between him and the button."

 Perfect! I also think this should be moved to the suggested rule changes.

PLEASE NOTE: I misunderstood exactly what K-Lo was referring to in his prior response. His answer is perfect for the method used by diz475. I however would not support it and prefer the old standard that I've always used. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Maybe I should refrain from posting anything at 4am in the future ::)
« Last Edit: July 07, 2012, 07:21:16 AM by Nick C »

K-Lo

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Re: Balancing Tables - Clarification
« Reply #42 on: July 07, 2012, 03:49:48 AM »
K-Lo,

  Your suggestion makes the situation simple to understand. It is certainly worth repeating, so I will:... " the rule should say that the new player "shall take the next vacant seat after the button" and may post a single BB if there are no intervening players between him and the button."

 Perfect! I also think this should be moved to the suggested rule changes.

Thanks... but to be clear, it is not a rule change that I personally would support, mainly for the reason I set out in point #1.  I'd rather do it the "classic" way as you and I are used to.  But if everyone else thought diz's way was best, then the language should indeed be clarified.  As the rule currently stands, I think you can argue that either way is accommodated - it all depends whether you think that you must always put the SB in front of a seat or not.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2012, 04:01:54 AM by K-Lo »

Nick C

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Re: Balancing Tables - Clarification
« Reply #43 on: July 07, 2012, 07:14:13 AM »
K-LO,

 You are correct. For some reason I was thinking your reference was about seating the new player in the next vacant seat after the BB, not the button.

 Sorry about that.

 Perhaps you can clarify what is meant by; #8 Balancing Tables A:...even if that means taking the big blind twice? How does that happen? Is it twice in a succession? I don't get it.

 

K-Lo

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Re: Balancing Tables - Clarification
« Reply #44 on: July 07, 2012, 08:59:12 AM »
Perhaps you can clarify what is meant by; #8 Balancing Tables A:...even if that means taking the big blind twice? How does that happen? Is it twice in a succession? I don't get it.
It is saying that it is possible the physical seat/chair can be host to the big blind two hands in a row.  

Work through the example I gave in point #4.  After the player in seat 5 busts out, and you bring a new player in, where would you put him, and where will the button/SB/BB be?  
« Last Edit: July 07, 2012, 09:00:40 AM by K-Lo »