Author Topic: Question on Rule 14: Asking to See a Hand  (Read 9824 times)

MikeB

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Question on Rule 14: Asking to See a Hand
« on: May 07, 2012, 07:45:06 PM »
The following question was submitted by a TDA associate who would like some clarification on Rule 14.

"...There seems to be a little confusion regarding rule 14 asking to see a hand. If player a bets the river and player b calls, player a shows the winner and asks for players b's hand to be tabled, does player b have the right to see his hand? My impression was that this rules was amended for the "any player that was dealt into the hand has the right to see any hand that survives to a showdown" privilege that grants the player the right to see a hand in the case of collusion. However, I thought any player who survived themselves to a show could ask to see a hand if it went to a show down. Is this true? Can only the caller ask to see the bettors hand? ... Thanks, S."

Please note that Rule 14 was amended between Versions 1.0 and 2.0 of the 2011 Rules Set. Discussion is appreciated.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 08:19:22 PM by MikeB »

Nick C

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Re: Question on Rule 14: Asking to See a Hand
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2012, 08:26:25 PM »
There is a problem with the question. There is also a problem with TDA Rule #14. It is contradicting and very confusing. I allow any player at the table (dealt in the hand) the right to see a called hand. Period. If requests are used as a form of irritation, the privilege will be taken away.

MikeB

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Re: Question on Rule 14: Asking to See a Hand
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2012, 08:28:18 PM »
S, thanks for the great question. It's worthwhile to post Rule 14, Version 2.0, in it's entirety to answer the question:
 
Rule 14: Except where house policy requires a hand to be shown or provides an express right to see a hand on request, asking to see a hand is a privilege granted at TD’s discretion to protect the integrity of the game (suspicion of invalid hand, collusion, etc). This privilege is not to be abused. A player who mucks his hand face down at showdown without fully tabling it loses any rights he may have to ask to see any hand.

With Rule 14 in mind, lets look at the details of your question:
1: Does a have the right to ask to see b's hand (or vice-versa). Note in Rule 14, unless house policy states otherwise, the TDA considers asking to see a hand to be a privlege that the TD can grant or deny to protect the integrity of the game.
2: Your impression that the rule was amended so that any player dealt in has the right to see any hand that makes it to showdown: this is not correct. The only time the TDA has a mandatory showing of all hands at showdown is if one or more of the players is all-in. Otherwise, asking to see a non-tabled hand at showdown is a "privlege granted to protect the integrity fo the game".
3: Any player who survives to the showdown can ask to see any other hand at showdown: again, they may ask, but it's a privlege the TD may grant or deny based on protecting the integrity of the game. One implication of this is that a player in a non all-in showdown does have the right to muck face down HOWEVER if they do this they lose their privlege to ask to see any other hand.
4: Can only the caller ask to see the bettors hand: that's not stipulated in Rule 14.
5: Again it's important to point out that any player who is in a non all-in showdown who elects to muck his / her hand face down without tabling it will lose their privlege to ask to see any hand for any reason.

Thanks for the question!

K-Lo

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Re: Question on Rule 14: Asking to See a Hand
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2012, 12:45:55 PM »
I agree with Mike:  for better or for worse, this is how I understand the effect of the new rule to be:  asking to see a hand, regardless of whom is asking, whether as bettor or caller, a player in the hand or not, anyone, is solely at the TDs discretion.  This assumes there is no house rule to the contrary.  In general, this is likely to speed up the game by eliminating all requests of the sort "I just want to see what you called me with"' which players do not have any right to (although many think that they do). Let's also face the fact that there are also players who will make the request just to put their opponents on tilt - again players are not entitled to this.

I personally would prefer to "bend" this rule in a very specific but common situation by allowing requests, even though I may not necessarily suspect collusion, from a player who has called the last bet or raise to ask to see the bettor or raiser's hand. I think rules 12 and 14 are a bit contradictory. In my view, the caller has "paid to see the bettor's cards" by calling the last aggresor's bet, and this is consistent with rule 12 that says the player who made the last aggressive action MUST show first.  So if a player bets and then mucks to a call (e.g. Presumably his bluff was called) I would rarely deny the caller's request to see the hand.  However, in any other situations (including the one in the original post where the bettor wants to see the caller's hand), I would strictly apply the new rule and only allow the hand to be shown if I thought there was a game protection issue.

K
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 12:47:36 PM by K-Lo »

MikeB

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Re: Question on Rule 14: Asking to See a Hand
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2012, 02:38:42 PM »
Some history on this is useful. On the afternoon of the 2nd day of the 2009 TDA Summit the membership took an unoffical vote of members still present on the issue of the "bet-muck": where a player on the last betting round makes a bluffing bet, is called, and then as the hand proceeds to showdown he mucks his cards towards the center of the table face down.

The unofficial vote was clearly in support of the idea that in this case the dealer should accept the face-down muck, NOT table the hand, muck-it irretrievably and award the pot to the surviving player. As part of that unofficial vote it was agreed that if the surviving player did ask to see the hand (this is the "caller" of the bet-muck), that the hand is live and can win the pot. The terms of whether the house would honor the request to see the hand was left up to the house, it wasn't an automatic right to see the hand (as I recall this vote).

Anyway... this language largely found it's way into Version 1.0 of the 2011 rules. http://www.pokertda.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Poker_TDA_Rules_2011_Version_1.0_Handout_docx_redline_changes.pdf

However, after receiving all comments on the 2011 first draft (Version 1.0), there was enough disagreement about when there's a right to see a hand at showdown and when not... and enough disagreement about the use of terms "uncontested and contested showdown" the language of Version 2.0 was adopted.  Version 2.0 says that unless the house provides a specific express right to see a hand in their house policy (such as the caller of the last aggressive bet has an express right to see the hand he called), then the only basis for asking to see a hand is to protect the integrity of the game.

Rule 12 doesn't specifically state this, but it is the order of show if players don't all table at once. so, you have a situation where players are reluctant to be the first to show at showdown, you can invoke Rule 12. And under rule 12 the caller definitely will see the last aggressive bettor.... (here's the twist), unless that bettor decides to muck face down in which case we're back to the house policy prevails. If the house provides an express right to see all called hands, then that's the rule, if the house allows a bet-muck then a request to see the bet-mucked hand would be a privledge granted to protect the integrity of the game.

The other detail on this topic to which there was widespread membership support is that if a player mucks face down at showdown they lose their right / privlege to ask to see any non-tabled hand for any reason... this is in part to encourage all players to table which is what ideally we want to have happen at showdown so that cards can be read and the pot awarded to the best hand.

This issue will likely be reviewed at the next summit to see if any greater consensus can be achieved on it.

K-Lo

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Re: Question on Rule 14: Asking to See a Hand
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2012, 04:03:29 PM »
Thanks, Mike.  This is helpful indeed.  

To be frank, I am surprised that the vote was so clearly in support of not automatically honoring the right of the caller to see a called hand In a bet-muck situation, especially with so much history and tradition behind the nature of a "call", but I can appreciate that stricter compliance with the new rule will result in fewer delays and greater consistency in the long term so I am fine with touting the "party line".  

I do think that rule 12 is inconsistent with rule 14 now, because of what it does not say as you pointed out.  It is not apparent from the rules themselves that rule 14 essentially will now have priority over rule 12 (i.e. that you can bet-muck and the caller does not have the automatic right to see the hand). The effective result of the rule change, taking into account the reasons for the change, is that the last aggressive actor actually has two options now -- fold or show (as opposed to only show), which is part of the reason why we now have all of these contentious situations when that person holds out at showdown and we get into these "you show, no, you show, no, you show" situations.  

When the last aggressive actor no longer needs to show and can actually muck without being forced to reveal the hand even when asked by the caller, then there is no longer any incentive to show first as rule 12 would suggest "must be done". In fact, if you think about it, by changing the rule to make an exception to having to show first (by mucking), rule 12 no longer serves its intended purpose.  The dealer can ask someone to show per rule 12, but since he may not need to show if he ultimately decides to muck instead, rule 12 no longer has any bite, and the dealer can ask until he is blue in the face.  If mucking was not permitted and the hand would always be turned face up, there would be less reason to delay.  In other words, by giving rule 14 priority, rule 12 has been demoted from a rule to a mere guideline.

I think that most of us on this forum will agree that many of the problems that we face today deal with issues at showdown.  I feel that a lot of the issues involve players not wanting to show, or players otherwise not tabling hands.  One alternative that has been put forth is to force all hands to be shown at any showdown, all-in or not, but I honestly don't think this would get wide consensus even though it would solve many of the showdown problems.  I personally think that players should have the option of mucking without showing at showdown, and limiting the amount of "free" information that is revealed to opponents.  It's not the mucking that is the problem, it is the gamemanship that is coming along with it.  If we are going to allow bet-mucking and we are rarely going to grant requests to show the mucked hand, then in my view, the only way to combat these showdown problems is to force the last aggressive actor to either follow rule 12 by showing first immediately, or earn the privilege of not having to show his hand by bet-mucking under rule 14 by folding immediately.  

What is missing from rule 12, in my opinion, is a stipulation that if the last aggressor does not show first immediately once showdown is called, his hand is dead.  Rule 14 can still apply (hand only revealed at TDs discretion) but the hand is dead.  Thus, players now have an incentive to abide by rule 12: if they want to avoid their hand from being declared dead, they must show when it is their turn to show.  Practically speaking, people are going to flip out if you don't warn them that their hand is on the verge of being killed, so perhaps a compromise is to provide an explanation and a very brief countdown period before killing the hand.  But without this threat of having the hand declared dead, we will forever have to endure the "you show first, no, you show first" situations and all the problems that come with it.  

Proper and efficient showdowns require that hands be shown in order, and an uncompromising penalty for non-compliance.  There is absolutely no reason not to show your hand when it is your turn to show.  Do this, and you will see many of the showdown problems solved.



« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 04:37:31 PM by K-Lo »

Nick C

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Re: Question on Rule 14: Asking to See a Hand
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2012, 08:32:11 PM »
Gentlemen,
 This is a small part of Robert's Rules.... A player may opt to throw his hand away after all the betting for the deal is over, rather than compete to win the pot. However, the other players do not lose the right to request the hand be shown if he does so.

 K-Lo, I would not agree to killing a hand if the aggressor fails to uncover first. I might lean in the direction of putting the clock on them for a (short) length of time. Or just have a tournament rule that requires  all players in for all bets table their hands.

 I just don't see how not showing, or only showing called hands when collusion is suspected protects the integrity of the game?

MikeB

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Re: Question on Rule 14: Asking to See a Hand
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2012, 08:48:10 PM »
Here's comments from Jan Fisher who answered the OP directly:

"The rule is written to ensure that asking to see a hand is allowed only when
collusion or other irregularities are suspected. It is specifically designed to
NOT allow a hand be shown to "get a line on another's play" or a needle. If you
are the caller and want to see the hand, let the better turn it over at showdown
before you show your winner.
If he mucks, you can't see it for your purposes...." [i.e. it has to be for the integrity of the game].

Note her point that if you are the caller and want to be sure to see the hand you called, just don't expose your hand at showdown until the bettor has shown his...

Keep in mind some venues may require the called hand to be shown, or have an express right to see it if asked... that's a house policy...

Nick C

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Re: Question on Rule 14: Asking to See a Hand
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2012, 09:00:02 PM »
Sorry,
 That's a big part of the game. If I make a bet and I have a caller, I should expect to show the hand if a player requests to see it! If I were bluffing and wanted to muck, other player's should still be able to see my hand. You can call it irritating or not nice but, that's the way it should be. I sure think it's a hell of a lot better than being accused of cheating or colluding in order to see a called hand. Integrity? It baffles me!

K-Lo

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Re: Question on Rule 14: Asking to See a Hand
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2012, 05:55:32 AM »
Gentlemen,
 This is a small part of Robert's Rules.... A player may opt to throw his hand away after all the betting for the deal is over, rather than compete to win the pot. However, the other players do not lose the right to request the hand be shown if he does so.

I think the message is clear that the new TDA rule is intended to override such provisions of Robert's Rules.  (I think it's also clear you don't like it.)   ;)

K-Lo, I would not agree to killing a hand if the aggressor fails to uncover first. I might lean in the direction of putting the clock on them for a (short) length of time. Or just have a tournament rule that requires  all players in for all bets table their hands.

A very brief clock is exactly what I am suggesting.  When the dealer says "showdown", and asks a player whose turn it is to show to do so, that player should immediately flip up his cards or fold.  Fine, let the dealer give a 3-second countdown... but if he still hasn't shown his cards (or folded), then his hand should be dead.  

Here's comments from Jan Fisher who answered the OP directly:

"The rule is written to ensure that asking to see a hand is allowed only when
collusion or other irregularities are suspected. It is specifically designed to
NOT allow a hand be shown to "get a line on another's play" or a needle. If you
are the caller and want to see the hand, let the better turn it over at showdown
before you show your winner. If he mucks, you can't see it for your purposes...." [i.e. it has to be for the integrity of the game].

Note her point that if you are the caller and want to be sure to see the hand you called, just don't expose your hand at showdown until the bettor has shown his...

(emphasis mine)

I have acknowledged Mike's and Jan's point that if a caller wants to see a hand, he can wait for the bettor to show first.  BUT here is the problem:  since the bettor can choose to muck rather than show, (and as Jan points out, if he does muck, the caller is not entitled to automatically see the bettor's hand under the new rule), there is absolutely no reason for the bettor to rush to show.  Sure, the caller can wait for the bettor to show his hand first before showing the winner, but the bettor can also wait/stall/delay hoping that the caller will give in and show first, and then muck.  The result is potentially a standoff -- until the floor gets called and threatens the bettor to show his hand first or risk a penalty, or some other such action.

At the risk of repeating myself, practically, simply telling the caller to wait for the bettor to turn over his hand is not as simple a solution as it is made out to be, particularly if the bettor is intent on stalling.  If the new rule did not apply to the bettor, and he was always forced to show, then at least the dealer could say "there's no point stalling, because your hand must be shown anyways".  But that is not the rule.  So unless the bettor faces some greater immediate threat -- like the threat of having the hand killed after a brief countdown -- the new rule does nothing to deter stalling, and in fact, probably encourages bettors to do so.  I don't mind the new rule as much as Nick C does, but it fails to address the stalling issue, and perhaps that is a related but separate issue.

I just don't see how not showing, or only showing called hands when collusion is suspected protects the integrity of the game?

I don't think that is their point.  The new rule says that TD's can only exercise their discretion to reveal the contents of a mucked hand if there is a game protection concern.  I think realistically this probably means... almost never.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 08:33:37 AM by K-Lo »

Nick C

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Re: Question on Rule 14: Asking to See a Hand
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2012, 07:03:37 AM »
K-Lo,
 You have a much more articulate way of addressing your concerns than I do, that's for sure. I think you have indicated that there is a need for further discussion and change.

 I guess my point is, we should not have to go back and forth trying to explain what we think the proper interpretation of a rule should be. It should be clear and easy to understand. There is a proper order of showdown for all games...follow these simple rules, and there will be no problems. Allowing player's to "slow roll" or bet/muck with the "protection" of the house does NOT protect the integrity of the game, and is not in the best interest of the game, either!

MikeB

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Re: Question on Rule 14: Asking to See a Hand
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2012, 10:43:34 AM »
It's important to understand that TDA rules don't say that a called hand doesn't have to be shown if all competitors but one muck face-down at an all-in showdown... the TDA leaves this to house policy.  There just was not enough consensus one way or the other from the 2011 Summit: some members wanted an "uncontested showdown" provision that allowed the lone surviving player with cards at showdown to win the pot and muck without showing. Others require that a hand always be shown at showdown, even if all other competitors have mucked... others leave it to TD discretion...

What the TDA rule does say is that AFTER any requirement to show per house policy is satisfied, then any other request to see is a privledge strictly to protect the integrity of the game (guard against collusion, chip dumping, etc.)... and further, if you muck without revealing your hand at showdown you lose this privledge.

Nick C

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Re: Question on Rule 14: Asking to See a Hand
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2012, 12:24:00 PM »
Mike,
 Not allowing the player (that mucks,) the privilege to see another player's hand is no consolation for the other player's that have a right to see his hand. You can't see his hand, and he could care less what you have. 

 Why do we always make reference to house policy as the exception to the rule? Are tournament rules that different from Robert's Rules? When was the the traditional showdown procedure changed? I've never seen, or heard, of not being able to see a called hand prior to the introduction of the TDA ?  Was this introduced by the TDA?

 If you initiate a bet, or call all bets on the final betting round, be prepared to show your hand. You don't have to... unless another player requests that the hand be shown. What better way to assure that no chip dumping, or other forms of collusion exist, than to see all hands at the showdown?

 Do we really need to save player's the embarrassment of exposing their bluff? Come on, that's part of the game.