Author Topic: WSOP introducing "chat to your heart's content" rule?  (Read 6932 times)

K-Lo

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WSOP introducing "chat to your heart's content" rule?
« on: May 09, 2012, 02:52:24 PM »
OK... the title of this post was a bit tongue-in-cheek, but I was a bit surprised that WSOP announced today that they plan to considerably relax the rules (making Daniel Negreanu very happy) on talking at the table for this year's WSOP, to provide for a more "fun" atmosphere (but apparently still being guarded against collusion).  As I understand what is proposed, you can say anything about your hand at the table while action is pending, including the contents of the hand itself, so long as you don't physically expose your cards at the table.  

We'll have to see what the actual published rule looks like, but I have not heard that the rule would be restricted to talking by players when a player is all-in and someone is contemplating a call. I have not heard whether it will even matter if the pot is heads-up or multi-way.  It's also uncertain whether this permissive rule would even apply to players who have folded and are no longer in a hand.

I have mixed feelings about this... on the one hand, sometimes I do think that many TDs misinterpret the No Disclosure rule and apply it too strictly, thus curbing table talk much more than they ought to or need to;  on the other hand, I would be concerned that, especially in multi-way pots, talking about one's hand can unduly influence the way that the hand might otherwise play out despite not necessarily being collusion.  I would cringe if this evolved into permitting players to provide a play-by-play commentary at the table as a hand progresses (do we still have a One Player to a Hand Rule)?

I guess when you're running the biggest poker tourney in the world, you are in a position to change your tourney's rules in any way that seems fit.  I guess kudos are in order for being a leader instead of a follower.  It will be interesting to see how the rule is ultimately written, and I don't know whether it will work out.  What I do know is that such a brave move is likely to make the road to arriving at one standardized set of rules that much more difficult.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 03:00:44 PM by K-Lo »

Nick C

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Re: WSOP introducing "chat to your heart's content" rule?
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2012, 08:06:51 PM »
I see nothing wrong with conversation when action is head to head, and I'm willing to bet that is the way the rule will be written. It could never work in a multi-hand pot.

K-Lo

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Re: WSOP introducing "chat to your heart's content" rule?
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2012, 06:56:40 AM »
I see nothing wrong with conversation when action is head to head, and I'm willing to bet that is the way the rule will be written. It could never work in a multi-hand pot.

I hope you are right, Nick. Although I think there are some relatively rare situations when disclosing one's hand even when heads-up (except at the very end of the tournament) can fail to protect other players remaining in the tournament that are not in the hand, allowing conversation only when heads-up would be at least a reasonable compromise.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 06:58:06 AM by K-Lo »

Nick C

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Re: WSOP introducing "chat to your heart's content" rule?
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2012, 02:26:56 PM »
K-Lo,
 One of the concerns that I have with "chat til your hearts content" is the chance that the TDA will feel the need to adopt the same rule. IMO, this is one of the problems that I have with changing or ammending a rule just because the WSOP or any other major tournament makes a change. I think the TDA should stick with sound, time tested rules for poker that can be adopted worldwide. If other's wish to add their own rules, or amend an existing rule, let them.

 The more we alter the "old rules" the more controversy we create, and the farther we drift from our purpose; to create the best standardized set of tournament rules in the world!

chet

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Re: WSOP introducing "chat to your heart's content" rule?
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2012, 06:29:20 PM »
Nick:  I am not of the opinion that the TDA should adopt each and every rule promulgated by the WSOP Rules committee (assuming there is such a group).  But, do you really think this is an area where the TDA should make a stand against what is probably the 500 pound gorilla of the poker tournament world?  Personally, I don't have a stake either way in this particular issue, but I think there would have to be a really strong group of folks at the next Summit opposed in order to have the TDA on a separate page from the WSOP.   

Since the next TDA Summit isn't until 2013, we will have the benefit of a years worth of experience before this is discussed as a formal "issue".  It will be interesting to see how that year of experience plays out.

Chet

Nick C

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Re: WSOP introducing "chat to your heart's content" rule?
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2012, 07:32:24 PM »
Chet,
 I'd rather voice my opinion now than wait until it is drafted in 2013. Let's talk it over for a while before we create another controversial rule to debate!

 I'm sorry but I don't get the 500 pound gorilla of the poker tournament rule?

 By the way, I've always been in favor of allowing player's to say whatever they want, but only when action is down to 2 players. My point is; do we need to adopt such a rule just because the WSOP is introducing it?

W0lfster

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Re: WSOP introducing "chat to your heart's content" rule?
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2012, 05:34:57 PM »
I absolutely agree with Nick on this one and to be quite frank, SUPRISED the WSOP, the granddaddy of all tournaments to allow the rules to be this relaxed. The TDA in my opinion is about standardising the most controversial of rules for card rooms as a guide to stick to, again though house rules take effect also. As Nick correctly says if the tournament is down to 2 players at the final table heads-up they can talk about their hand, even show face up as it doesnt really affect the outcome of the tournament which is fair enough. By changing the rules to these new WSOP proposed rules why is there a TDA if we keep changing the most common sense of rules? IMO 'no disclosure to a hand' is simple and leaves out ambiguity, ohhh but he didnt quite say what he had only gave a clue, Im sorry but it leads to more complications and situations of debate which is unnecessary.

Standardisation is the key word for the TDA IMO and changing these rules because one tournament thinks it adds a more 'fun atmosphere' would contradict the TDA's aim of fairness for all card rooms not just for show as a lot of these proposed relaxed rules are also for the viewers at home.

chet

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Re: WSOP introducing "chat to your heart's content" rule?
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2012, 06:27:35 PM »
I am going to say this once more, hopefully for the last time.  

Point Number One:  In my opinion, Caesars Entertainment doesn't give one damn dime about poker or the WSOP except as a profit/loss line on the balance sheet.  I will even go so far as to suggest that they are very likely to lose money on the actual WSOP itself.  

Point Number Two:  Caesars Entertainment is just exactly that entertainment.

Point Number Three:  I believe there are two groups of people at the top of the heap, A) The players and of that group, the relatively few who are well known to the general public, and B) those members of the general public that are inclined to watch poker on the television.  Which brings us to ESPN

Point Number Four:  I suspect that Caesars Entertainment makes as much "Profit" from their relationship with ESPN as they do from the WSOP itself, likely more.

So, In order for the WSOP to exist, Caesars Entertainment has to make the event entertaining for those two groups, Players and Public.

If anyone bothered to read the article explaining why this change was made, I think you will agree that this was done for solely entertainment value period.

The players want to have more "fun" and the public can only take so much of Lon and Norman (even though I personally think they do a really good job with a very hard assignment) before they look for the "clicker" and change the channel.  

Enough of this, I hope I have made myself clear and to the point.  Just remember, the WSOP, the WPT and each and every related event is about Profit, nothing else.

Chet

K-Lo

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Re: WSOP introducing "chat to your heart's content" rule?
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2012, 07:36:34 AM »
Some excellent points here.  We relax the rules for the sake of entertainment, and then the behaviour gets 'advertised' on TV.  Then when we try to explain why the rules are why they are to players at the grassroots level, they undoubtedly bring up the fact "well, they do it on TV all the time, so it must be allowed".  Makes a lot more work for the rest of us.

I don't mind some minor rule changes to "spice" things up for entertainment's sake, but things shouldn't be changed if it is done at the expense of the integrity of the game.

Spence

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Re: WSOP introducing "chat to your heart's content" rule?
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2012, 05:51:21 PM »
This is the new rule. Right off the WSOP homepage
Quote
104.
Table Talk / Disclosure: Participants are obligated to protect the other Participants in the Tournament at all times. Therefore, whether in a hand or not, Participants may not:
1. Disclose contents of live or folded hands,
2. Advise or criticize play at any time, 3. Read a hand that hasn't been tabled,
4. Discuss strategy with an outside source.

The one-Participant-to-a-hand rule will be enforced.
Special Exceptions
A Participant is allowed to mention the strength or content of his/her hand if no other Participant in the hand will have a decision to make.

In heads-up events or when down to the last two Participants in a Tournament, Participants may speak freely regarding the contents of their hands.

The Floor Person reserves the right use his/her judgment to determine if one Participant intentionally helped another Participant. Participants who violate this rule are subject to penalty in accordance with Rules 39, 102, and 103.
Interesting no?
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 04:15:39 PM by Spence »

K-Lo

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Re: WSOP introducing "chat to your heart's content" rule?
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2012, 09:49:47 PM »
It is interesting.  It's not that bad actually.  At least it seems to be limited to situations where the talker is closing the action. 

Do you think the new rule is a bit ambiguous?  For example, player A goes all-in, and B is contemplating calling.  The new rule says that B can reveal the contents of his hand.  If B then asks A what he has, can A reveal the contents of his hand to B?  Technically, A would not be allowed to disclose his hand, because in A's case, there is still another participant (B) in the hand that has a decision to make. If A also disclosed his hand, would A be penalized for doing so?

Nick C

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Re: WSOP introducing "chat to your heart's content" rule?
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2012, 06:29:49 AM »
Spence and K-Lo,
 It is interesting but I think the new rule should only be allowed when action is head to head. It gets a little too complex, because there could be multiple all-in player's that should have more protection. Also, I see nothing in the new rule that says a player can reveal the contents of their hand. It only makes reference to talking about your hand, right? Can you lie about your holding?

 I've never objected to any civil conversation, that is related to the hand in progress, when action was head's-up. However, I see many new problems (on the horizon) with the new rule, the way it is written.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 05:46:48 AM by Nick C »