Premature Turn and Mucked River?

[pastateke]

On the flop all players check except the Button who wanted to bet and the dealer burned and put out the turn prematurely. This dealer did not know the standard rule of using the natural river as the turn, but instead burned and put the natural river face down on the table. The Button raised and everyone folded except for 1 player.

The dealer began to shuffle the deck and the exposed turn card to put out a new turn card when they noticed the river they had face down had been scooped into the muck.

I was called over after this happened to make a ruling....I showed her how to make the river the turn and shuffle the remaining deck after but in this situation the damage was done.

I will tell you how I ruled and why but I want to see how others would rule??? 

[Nick C]

Paststeke,

 Yours was a rare situation, for sure. There are few options after such a mistake and the current rules would give no alternative but to reshuffle and produce a new river.
 
 I do have several suggestions if it happens again:
      #1 Set the exposed card aside, burn and turn the proper river in the turncard's position (standard), but don't re-shuffle
           until the next betting round is complete. It may not be necessary if a player folds.
      #2 Suspend any further betting between the two player's.
      #3 (This one should start some heated discussion). Re-shuffle for a new turncard and then retrieve the exposed proper turncard and use it for the river.

[pastateke]

The problem was the original river card (un seen because it was laying face down on the table) was scooped into the muck. All the burns were out and the flop was out. The dealer had the stub in her hand and the muck which containned the folded cards and the unseen river card...

I ruled that the dealer needed to reshuffle the stub and the muck to give the original river card a chance to come out.

[Brian Vickers]

To answer your question, yes that card still needs a chance to come out, so your only option (as it was unseen) is to reshuffle the muck and stub.  As bad as the situation the dealer put you in was, I'd say it was a good use of rule #1 by you.

That being said, I work in Central PA and we follow the "proper procedure" (or at least, the more common procedure) of bringing the original river card as the new turn card, then reshuffling the original turn card back into the deck .  Every time I instruct the dealer to do this, at least one player will chime in and say "no, you should put the original river card out face down and then shuffle and bring a new turn card out."  I had never heard of this before so it must just be a regional thing, maybe out of AC? (or more likely their home games were run this way, as poker is fairly new to PA) IDK I'm from the mid-south .  Either way, whenever someone tells me this "right way to do it" I always refer to the OP's exact example of why that would be a terrible, terrible, way of doing it - because the river card may end up mucked and also it might possibly be exposed.

[Nick C]

Brian,
 I'm sorry I don't know what OP stands for but, I've always preferred the way you do it, over any other. That is; using the proper river in place of the premature turn and then reshuffling if necessary.

[chet]

Nick:

I believe that OP stands for "Original Poster".

chet

[Stuart Murray]

We do not use the river as the turn, and re-shuffle and re-issue the turn as the dealer did in the original post. I have always found that most in keeping with RROP requirements:

"Subsequent streets should be dealt as if no error had occurred"

Perhaps just the way I have interpreted the rule and implemented it.

Regards
Stu

[K-Lo]

We do not use the river as the turn, and re-shuffle and re-issue the turn as the dealer did in the original post. I have always found that most in keeping with RROP requirements:

"Subsequent streets should be dealt as if no error had occurred"

Stu:  I think RROP actually does explicitl sets out the procedure of using the river as the turn, and then reshuffling for the river (RROP Holdem #8). 

Bob goes on to explain that he would rather change the rule to burn a card before dealing the river (which I like).  He also suggests possibly changing the rule to reshuffling before the turn, and dealing a new turn AND river (I don't prefer this - I'd rather keep 4/5 of the original board). 

[Nick C]

K-Lo,

 I don't like the suggestion for the reshuffle before the turn either. I also don't quite understand his suggestion for burning an additional card? Would there be 4 burns? or would the burn just be reshuffled with the premature turn? I also don't like that idea because of the time required to reshuffle only so there is a slight chance that the proper turn might show up? Remember, there is always the possibility that the river card may not even be needed if a player bets and the others fold.

 Dealer's, stop dealing prematurely, but if you do let's keep the rule the way it is, replace the premature turn with the proper river...that's my vote.

[Brian Vickers]

Bob likes a 4th burn (as do I) for game protection because it would be harder to false shuffle a card to the 2nd from the top of the deck than it is to the top of the deck.  Also, if the card has any markings, it is still concealed until it is ready to be delivered (although I don't have the dealer shuffle until it is time to deliver that card). 

That being said, I only use 3 burn cards total in my room because it is much more accepted by players and avoids freaking people out when they already might be upset about the prematurely exposed card.

[K-Lo]

Bob likes a 4th burn (as do I) for game protection because it would be harder to false shuffle a card to the 2nd from the top of the deck than it is to the top of the deck.  Also, if the card has any markings, it is still concealed until it is ready to be delivered (although I don't have the dealer shuffle until it is time to deliver that card).  

That being said, I only use 3 burn cards total in my room because it is much more accepted by players and avoids freaking people out when they already might be upset about the prematurely exposed card.

Agreed, same reasons.  I think one of the other European rule sets already does this.  If you are shuffling up all the cards anyways, what's the harm of a "4th" burn at that point?  lol.  In any event, I do use 3 now for the same reasons as it is just more universally accepted.

Dealer's, stop dealing prematurely, but if you do let's keep the rule the way it is, replace the premature turn with the proper river...that's my vote.

I agree with you Nick.  I think your observation that it doesn't always go to the river is very relevant.  In all those cases, using the river as the turn has not resulted in any "new" board cards being introduced.