Author Topic: Misdeals - Boxed cards  (Read 42607 times)

Nick C

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Re: Misdeals - Boxed cards
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2012, 05:30:17 PM »
Spence,
 The situation that I was responding to was 7th street in stud. I agree it would change my opinion on early rounds of betting. I am against automatically calling for a mis-deal when a second boxed card appears after substantial action. The question is, how many boxed cards can be ignored and looked at as "non-existent?" I believe that substantial action should have precedence over the number of boxed cards that appear. Therefore, suspending any further betting seems to be the most logical way to complete the hand without further damage to any players.

 I can't imagine being involved in a hand, holding a powerful hand and having all bets returned because a second boxed card appears on the last betting round. Needs some work, if you ask me.

Spence

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Re: Misdeals - Boxed cards
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2012, 06:26:32 PM »
Spence,
 The situation that I was responding to was 7th street in stud. I agree it would change my opinion on early rounds of betting. I am against automatically calling for a misdeal when a second boxed card appears after substantial action. The question is, how many boxed cards can be ignored and looked at as "non-existent?" I believe that substantial action should have precedence over the number of boxed cards that appear. Therefore, suspending any further betting seems to be the most logical way to complete the hand without further damage to any players.

 I can't imagine being involved in a hand, holding a powerful hand and having all bets returned because a second boxed card appears on the last betting round. Needs some work, if you ask me.
Agreed. If I make a royal on the turn and as the dealer goes to peel off the river there is 2 boxed cards, I would lose my mind. That much more so if there were a Bad beat Jackpot involved. These circumstances are rare of course but anytime that we return bets for the hand there has to be a serious issue with the deck. We had a thread last year about handling a deck that had a very large number of boxed cards in Omaha and how the hand would be brought to conclusion. The only possible solution there was to reshuffle. I canít remember what we agreed would be shuffled together but bringing the hand to conclusion is the foremost in my thoughts.

WSOPMcGee

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Re: Misdeals - Boxed cards
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2012, 04:15:42 PM »
I can't imagine being involved in a hand, holding a powerful hand and having all bets returned because a second boxed card appears on the last betting round. Needs some work, if you ask me.
Holding my thoughts here hoping for some more responses. I like the dialogue going on. Hopefully we can provoke more thought to some of these archaic rules we have that some of have been taught that "we do it this way because that's the way it's always been done!"  :-\

Just a reminder that it was 3 boxed cards in total. One on 3rd street, 2 on seventh street.
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W0lfster

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Re: Misdeals - Boxed cards
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2012, 03:28:45 AM »
Nick, when you say all bets will be returned to the players, why? Its the deal nob
ody has bet yet. In that sense if it was a cash game and their was a straddle would the straddler have to take his straddle back?

Nick C

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Re: Misdeals - Boxed cards
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2012, 08:01:21 AM »
Wolfster,
 I am not in agreement with the current rule. I just stated what it implies: When more than 1 boxed card appears in a hand, it's a misdeal and all bets are returned. Why? and how time consuming and difficult could that become in a hand with multiple players, and substantial action? If you look back on my replies on this post, you should understand how I feel about boxed cards. In a nutshell; if a boxed card is discovered on the initial deal (before action has occurred) re-deal. Once substantial action takes place, I feel there are much better alternatives.

diz475

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Re: Misdeals - Boxed cards
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2013, 03:52:06 PM »
I know this is kind of old but I would like to clarify some things here.
I have always been under the impression that 2 or more boxed cards found at anytime was a fouled deck and all money put in the pot would be returned and a new hand dealt.

The tda seem to say only during the delivery of the hole cards. (Iím thinking flop games here)

The question I was originally trying to answer was if one exposed card by the dealer and one boxed card would be a misdeal during the initial deal or anytime during the hand

Nick C

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Re: Misdeals - Boxed cards
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2013, 07:53:16 PM »
diz475,

 I believe exposed cards and boxed cards are two different situations...completely. During a deal, if the dealer exposes a card he replaces it with what would be the burn card; if a boxed card is discovered it is replaced by the card beneath it.

 Even though both cards are exposed, the solution is not the same as 2 boxed cards. If that's what you are referring to.

diz475

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Re: Misdeals - Boxed cards
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2013, 09:07:00 PM »
That is the way I feel also nick
But
The wording makes it sound like one of each would also be a misdeal

And how do you handle a second boxed card being found after a
Significant action has taken place
I treat it as a fouled deck and all money returned
It seems others disagree with that

Nick C

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Re: Misdeals - Boxed cards
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2013, 08:11:55 AM »
diz475:

 I'll repeat my reply from an earlier post: I can't imagine being involved in a hand, holding a powerful hand and having all bets returned because a second boxed card appears on the last betting round. Needs some work, if you ask me.

 I also understand why you feel the way you do about the wording in TDA #31...b) two or more exposed or boxed cards...I never looked at it that way but, the correct interpretation could easily be (incorrectly) considered. Perhaps adding: this does not apply when 1 card is exposed and 1 boxed card is discovered.

 Many feel that rules should remain the same at all times, to keep them consistent, however; the number of player's and when the exposed or boxed card occurs should have a definite affect on the decision from the floor. I would hate to have a "nut hand" cancelled out because a second boxed card shows after the river card is turned. >:(

Tristan

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Re: Misdeals - Boxed cards
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2013, 02:56:37 PM »
"If substantial action occurs, a misdeal cannot be declared and the hand must proceed." - That is the last sentence of rule 31.

I would have to have a pretty significant reason to justify stopping the action and returning money to players. 
Tristan
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Nick C

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Re: Misdeals - Boxed cards
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2013, 07:03:26 PM »
Tristan,

 Take a look at TDA #31 b) two or more exposed or boxed cards.

 Are you saying that substantial action takes precedence over 2 boxed cards or 2 exposed cards? I like it but, that would be more practical if we specified that the exposed cards or boxed cards must occur on the initial deal of all starting cards; e.g. before the bring-in in stud and before action from the under the gun position in flop games.

 So if your interpretation  is correct; why not just add this to the last line: If substantial action occurs, a misdeal cannot be declared and the hand must proceed, even if 2 or more boxed cards appear or multiple cards are exposed! ;)


Tristan

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Re: Misdeals - Boxed cards
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2013, 07:56:34 PM »
Take a look at this.

32:   Substantial Action.
Substantial Action is defined as either: A) any two actions in turn, at least one of which must involve putting chips in the pot (i.e. any 2 actions except 2 checks or 2 folds); OR B) any combination of three actions in turn (check, bet, raise, call, or fold).

So, by reading this we know that substantial action must happen within the first 3 actions preflop:  Fold, fold, fold or any combination of a fold and an action that includes putting in money. 

So, we already have established a time frame; I don't see why anything needs to be added to this rule.  A misdeal can only be called within the first 2-3 actions of a hand or else substantial action HAS occurred and a misdeal can not be called.
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Nick C

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Re: Misdeals - Boxed cards
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2013, 09:40:52 PM »
Tristan,

 Why are you skipping TDA #31 and going to #32

We are discussing (#31) boxed cards and you are looking at (#32) Substantial action. I'm going to write in my suggestion again and see if it would comply with your view on this situation. 
 
 Here it is again:  If substantial action occurs, a misdeal cannot be declared and the hand must proceed, even if 2 or more boxed cards appear, or multiple cards
 are exposed!  ;)

diz475

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Re: Misdeals - Boxed cards
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2013, 02:33:10 AM »
i agree thats how it is worded not sure why ive never noticed it before
my question is how many boxed cards before it is a fouled deck after substantial action

the rule i use is 2 boxed cards anytime in a hand is a fouled deck, with a fouled deck all money is returned. what nick is saying
i understand that this could be ugly when you put out a turn card in a large pot and the next 2 cards in the deck are boxed.

but consider if you put a A spades on the turn and a player said i have the A spades in my hand that is a fouled deck (maybe not the same but at some point so many boxed cards has to be a fouled deck) or do you not consider them as fouling the deck.

and tristan do you consider (before substantial action has taken place) if you had one boxed and one exposed by the dealer a misdeal

K-Lo

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Re: Misdeals - Boxed cards
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2013, 07:21:51 AM »
There is a difference between a deck that is defective (e.g. 2 Aces of spades) and a deck that has a number of cards boxed.

Even if cards are boxed, there is an equal probability of drawing any given card for your hand, and you proceeded in the hand on that basis.  Although it is true that if a card that improves your hand later appears and is boxed, or is prematurely put on the board, etc., it may change the flow of the hand, that exposed card could have equally been a card that did not help your hand.  According to random card theory, there is no unfairness here as the affected card will have an equal chance to be a winning or losing card for all players.

A defective deck on the other hand (e.g. two Aces of Spades) means that the player who has one of the Aces of Spades, or who needs to draw one of the Aces, had/has a greater chance of drawing it and therefore, the deal is not truly random.  

A defective or "fouled" deck has a very specific definition in my view.. I like the Hilton's rule here: "missing, mutilated or marked cards, one one or more jokers when none are in use, do not constitute a defective deck...", and boxed cards are treated separately (as a scrap of paper).

With boxed cards, I see no reason why the hand should not be played through when there already has been substantial action. Nick's suggestion to clarify the language is well taken.  However, as Tristan pointed out, I'm not sure if we even need this - Rule #31 specifically outlines the conditions for a misdeal, and any misdeal cannot be declared once there has been substantial action.

With respect to the one boxed/one exposed card by the dealer situation at the beginning of the hand, strictly by the book, there is no misdeal;  but if no one has yet to act, I'd personally be tempted just to call it a misdeal to avoid the bad situation potentially snowballing especially if there are further boxed cards in the deck.  

During the hand, (after substantial action has occurred), if my dealer finds a boxed card and lets me know, I'd also be tempted to check the rest of the deck before action continues to see if there are any other boxed cards, and if there is more than one additional boxed card (i.e. three or more in total), I'd be inclined to turn the boxed cards over and reshuffle, not much unlike a prematurely exposed flop.  This is a bit unconventional, but I think it is fair and addresses the issue of a deck having a whole clump of boxed cards, and then having to expose them to all the players and expect them to continue with knowledge of those cards.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 07:49:08 AM by K-Lo »