Author Topic: Dealer misunderstood and mucks winning hand  (Read 12760 times)

Luca P.

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Dealer misunderstood and mucks winning hand
« on: April 16, 2012, 11:08:41 AM »
Hello folks, this situation happened yesterday:
Quote
two players on the river
player1 checks
player2 bets
player1 raises
player2 said "call" but in a whisper and turned AK (winning hand), only then he started to reach for his chips.

Dealer misunderstood and heard "fold" with player folding and turning his cards to make his opponent see what he was folding and without putting chips into the pot, then in 2 seconds the dealer puts AK into the muck, the two player1's cards (facedown) and shuffled it.

What to do now?? Some players heard "fold" others heard "call"
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Nick C

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Re: Dealer misunderstood and mucks winning hand
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2012, 12:15:47 PM »
Linker_split,
 Another dealer screw-up! If the player released his cards face down, I'd muck them. If the player turned them face-up (like he did) I would get clarification from the player before mucking the hand. The situation that you explained will always leave the player at the mercy of the floor because; his hand was unprotected, yet the winning hand was tabled? Tournament poker goes more by the book. Cash games can be more flexible if the players involved decide on a mutual agreement.

 Kill the hand and maybe the player will learn a lesson

Luca P.

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Re: Dealer misunderstood and mucks winning hand
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2012, 12:46:41 PM »
winning hand was AK and was tabled, and the player with AK first whispered "call" or "fold" then turned AK face up on the table, then reach for his chips.
When I asked "what did you say mr?" he said "I said call" and some players didn't understand the word, so did the dealer...
I said that "since dealer misunderstood your intentionm, and you whispered your action and turned your cards face up before putting chips into the pot, and since the dealer mucked them, I consider the hand dead"

That's what I did.
I want players to be clear on their action, since the correct call procedure is either announcing call clearly and then put chips into the pot or putting chips into the pot for a call, then dealer must say "showdown" and all is done, hand is over
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chet

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Re: Dealer misunderstood and mucks winning hand
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2012, 03:52:52 PM »
Linker:

Sorry, but I think you have broken a fundamental rule of poker, that being "dealer cannot kill a winning hand".  I submit that as long as the player turned his hand over fact up and then said call or fold, that "Card Speak" and that hand should not have been killed.  What would you have done if the player did not have the winning hand?  Would you have required him to put the call amount into the pot?  As long as the hand was turned over and there was confusion over the player verbal statement, I submit that "Cards Speak" is the controlling factor.

Chet

Spence

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Re: Dealer misunderstood and mucks winning hand
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2012, 04:08:28 PM »
Agreed with Chet. The players statement of call or fold was inaudible. As far as I am concerned it has no bearing. The fact that the player faced his cards seems to me like he was trying to win the pot. It is much less likely that he would fold and show. Cards speak, Winner!

Nick C

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Re: Dealer misunderstood and mucks winning hand
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2012, 08:10:24 PM »
Chet & Spence,
 What's to stop any player from tabling his hand (without a clear call) at the showdown if you're going to give him the pot if he has the best hand? Why risk the bet? Sorry guys, cards don't speak on this one. Protect your hand and put your chips in the pot. Turning your hand face-up does not indicate a call.

Luca P.

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Re: Dealer misunderstood and mucks winning hand
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2012, 12:38:05 AM »
Problem here is that some players whisper their action and turn face up their card, waiting the dealer to understand what is that action: is it a fold? a call?
What if the player whispered "fold", and turn his hand face up to make the other one show his losing hand, and then say "OH WAIT I SAID CALL!"?

What about ‎48: Accidentally Killed / Fouled Hands
Players must protect their own hands at all times. If a dealer kills a hand by mistake, or a hand is fouled, the player will have no redress and is not entitled to a refund of bets.
and 44: Non-Standard & Unclear Betting
Players use unofficial betting terms and gestures at their own risk. These may be interpreted to mean other than what the player intended.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 01:04:19 AM by Linker_Split »
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Stuart Murray

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Re: Dealer misunderstood and mucks winning hand
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2012, 03:56:00 AM »
If sufficient other players felt his intent was to call, then I am with Chet, the hand is live and will play.  What 'sufficient' is is a judgement call at the table.

Regards
Stu

mooredog

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Re: Dealer misunderstood and mucks winning hand
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2012, 06:00:24 AM »
Ask yourself this. If players at the other end of the table do not hear player 2's declaration and don't see any chips move out into the center how would they know whether it's a call or not. I'm with Linker. It was not announced clear enough and with no visual clue to the calling action I send the pot to player 1. Players fold face up all the time and I'd rule that way and tell player 2 "Make your actions clear!"

K-Lo

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Re: Dealer misunderstood and mucks winning hand
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2012, 07:07:02 AM »
Ugh.

The dealer ought to have immediately asked the whisperer to clarify his or her intention.  If the hand was actually tabled, then Rule 48 would not apply, but rather Rule 15 would.  And that's the question I suppose... was the hand actually tabled.

winning hand was AK and was tabled, and the player with AK first whispered "call" or "fold" then turned AK face up on the table, then reach for his chips.
When I asked "what did you say mr?" he said "I said call" and some players didn't understand the word, so did the dealer...

If it really happened this quickly before all the cards were mucked, then there is no issue, is there?  The call has been clarified and the showdown continues.  However, if this only happened after the cards were mucked, what I want to know is:  why in the time it took the muck the hand did the whisperer not move his chips in (perhaps he did?)  why did he not speak up when the dealer took his AK cards to muck them?  did the dealer tell the opponent that it was a fold, and why did the whisperer not chime in to correct this?  AND how was the opponent so sure it was a fold, rather than a call or a raise?

This is very situational.  With the action being bet, raise, (?), I think it is reasonable to assume that there are enough cases that a call would be expected, especially if it was reasonable given the board.  While this is not, in itself, conclusive, it is relevant since IMO the opponent (player 2) also has an obligation to protect his own hand by verifying whether the whisper has actually called or folded before mucking his own hand face down.  If he mucked his hand face down without taking any steps to verify whether the shown hand was a call (particularly if he can see the player reaching for chips), a fold, or perhaps even a raise (!) or even an "I'll show you my hand to see your reaction but I haven't acted yet" move, all of which are plausible situations, then the opponent has failed to protect his own hand.  It is true that turning one's hand face up does not necessarily indicate a call, but both players bear responsibility for identifying what the action means and to proceed accordingly.

So yes, the whisperer must make his intentions clear, but the dealer is also at fault for not immediately asking for clarification, and the opponent is also at fault for not seeking clarification himself before potentially folding the only hand that has not been tabled.  It should not be so easy for dealers to kill hands that have been turned face-up by saying "well you might have said call, but I didn't hear it/you didn't say it loud enough/I'm going to pretend I didn't hear it/I'm racist and I hate your accent/I don't like you anyways/etc., so I'm killing your hand".  I think I would have to be at the table to feel comfortable with any decision, but I personally do put significant weight on the fact that at the very least, the whisperer's hand is an exposed hand and the action is ambiguous:  therefore, the opponent should have taken steps to clarify what the action was before allowing his hand to be mucked face down - so I would tend to award the pot to the only player with the tabled hand on that basis more often than not. 

Guillaume Gleize

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Re: Dealer misunderstood and mucks winning hand
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2012, 07:46:56 AM »
Hello,

Again and again thoses showdown misunderstood. I really think one day the TDA should organise a meeting ONLY FOR THE SHOWDOWNS ... ;)

Absolutly not sure to be right, I honestly would have ruled it that way:

I would only apply "Can't kill the winning hand" if AK was the nuts. In all other cases, because we can't be sure it was the winning hand, player 2 would have his hand declared dead by the fault of his own unclear action and player 1 would win the pot has the last standing player.

Sure of me? Here and in front of you I say NO. But if alone in my costume in front of the table I would say YES!

 8)
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 07:48:10 AM by Guillaume Gleize »

Nick C

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Re: Dealer misunderstood and mucks winning hand
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2012, 08:02:24 AM »
K-Lo,
 I agreed with all you said, right up until the last sentence. You pointed out all of the mistakes that were made by both player's and the (real poor) decisions made by the dealer, yet you elect to award the pot to a player that, #1 put no chips into the pot and #2 had his hand mucked by the dealer. I'm sorry, I can't agree with your call on this one, not with the evidence that we were given. I don't think we should assume that the player will call without knowing what the boardcards were, or how the hand played out. There are those that will always argue that the hands are not relevent (but they are). An example would be if the AK were a nut hand. I'm afraid that without the luxury of being at the table, I rule against the AK and give the dealer some time off! There are too many "slicksters" out there that will take advantage if we rule any other way.

 If you have a bad dealer in the box, the player's better learn to protect their hands and make their intentions clear or they will learn a harsh lesson. Protect your hand, and make your intentions clear...poker 101.

 Linker, I know you are having second thoughts about your decision but, I see nothing wrong with the way you handled that difficult situation.

K-Lo

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Re: Dealer misunderstood and mucks winning hand
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2012, 08:20:57 AM »
Just to be clear, if the opponent has asked the dealer "what did the player do?"  And the dealer replied, he "folded", and then waited for the pot to be pushed to him before giving up his cards, and if in all that time, Player 1 did not bother to correct the dealer, stop the dealer from pushing the pot, put the call amount in the pot, or otherwise demand a showdown, then in that case I would rule against the AK for sure.  On the other hand, if Player 2 simply allowed the dealer to take his hand solely on the "belief" that Player 1 folded, then the dealer has mucked a face-down hand and a face-up hand and that really is the only true objective evidence that we have that is not in dispute.  I do believe you can go both ways on this one depending on how you perceive the facts.  All I am saying is that the dealer's perception that a player who exposes his cards did not say 'call' loud enough is not, by itself, sufficient reason alone to rule against AK.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 08:49:41 AM by K-Lo »

Nick C

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Re: Dealer misunderstood and mucks winning hand
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2012, 08:28:02 AM »
K-Lo,
 Wouldn't you like to have been in that game? 8)

K-Lo

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Re: Dealer misunderstood and mucks winning hand
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2012, 08:50:27 AM »
Lol.  I would feel sorry for the dealer though if we were both playing at that game, and you were going to give him a piece of your mind...  ;)