Author Topic: Table Talk revisited  (Read 8323 times)

K-Lo

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Table Talk revisited
« on: March 19, 2012, 09:17:34 PM »
As we know, the line between what table talk is acceptable and what is not can be a bit blurry at times... I know where I ended up in this case, but I'm hoping to get some other opinions on this ruling.

Final table, all players fold to the button.  Button raises all-in, which is about 3-4x the BB.  SB is the short stack, and is pondering his decision.  SB says: "This is really close.  I would normally call if it was anyone but you.  But I think he (meaning the BB) is going to call you here, so I have no choice but to fold.  I fold."  Ultimately, BB folded, and pot is shipped to the button.  SB remarked to BB "I thought you were going to call, that's why I folded".  

I have no reason to suspect that any of the players are colluding... the sole issue is whether SB's statements made during his turn to act would be considered acceptable table talk, or would warrant a warning or penalty.

« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 09:19:17 PM by K-Lo »

chet

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Re: Table Talk revisited
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2012, 09:22:01 PM »
K-Lo:  Personally I think he was merely verbalizing his thought process.  I don't see where he was trying to give anyone any details about his hand or trying to tell anyone else how to play their hand against the Button.  I just don't see anything wrong with his statement.

Chet

Nick C

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Re: Table Talk revisited
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2012, 05:36:53 AM »
I personally, would discourage statements involving other players, yet to act, unless action is head to head. If you allow a statement like that, how do you rule if the BB replies with: "Oh, don't worry about me, I'm going to fold!" There is a fine line and it is a little blurry at times, as K-Lo mentioned. If the SB said; "I hate to lay-down this hand but, I'd rather take my chances on the next hand when I'm on the button." To me, that's different.
 Chet is probably right that he was merely "thinking out loud." I'll also agree that it would be difficult to suspect any collusion in K-Lo's post.
 I think a warning is appropriate.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 02:54:09 PM by Nick C »

K-Lo

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Re: Table Talk revisited
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2012, 10:20:02 PM »
In general, I think that table talk should be discouraged in multi-way pots, especially when the chatty player is not closing all action.  I don't have any problem specifically with a player thinking out loud, so long as he doesn't reveal his holding and doesn't advise others on how to play their hands.   

In this case, I had no problem with the talk until he made reference to the BB, who had not acted yet, and also made reference to a particular action that had not yet occurred.  The issue that I had is that "I think the BB is going to call you here" could easily be seen as a suggestion that the BB should call, or at least as a suggestion to the BB to think about calling if the BB was leaning towards folding.  (And in this particular case, it is actually to the SBs benefit if BB does call as he would have eliminated the button).

I do admit that it was a bit of a borderline case, as it was hard to judge the SB's intent since he is one of those players who just never shuts up.  I ended up giving the SB an informal 'warning', telling him to be careful about what he says when there is still a third person to act.

Nick C

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Re: Table Talk revisited
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2012, 05:56:08 AM »
K-Lo,
 I think you handled it perfectly.

chet

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Re: Table Talk revisited
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2012, 06:58:41 AM »
I agree!!

Spence

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Re: Table Talk revisited
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2012, 07:53:50 PM »
A lot of my junior supervisor have a tough time drawing the line in these cases. I find that they over explain the rules about what you can and cannot talk about in a hand and then you have players dancing around that line for the rest of the night. This seems to me like one of those times where when we enforce a rule that less information is better for the game. We don't want players dealing in specifics but can't say anything like" You can't talk about any specific part of your hand" or "Please don't point out what options other players have in the hand." So how do we best go about enforcing this rule? "Please don't talk about the hands in play." "Don't talk about other players in the hand." Those seem a little bit broad and not accurate to what we are trying to stop. I think as TD's we are conflicted. We like this part of the game. It makes it exciting and more fun. It is an inherent part of poker but we always seem to be cracking down on it. It may be that the player in us wants to be able to be a little chatty and the TD is trying to tell him to be quiet. Shouldn't we properly define for ourselves how we feel about table talk before we go and try to enforce it? I'm feeling conflicted...

Nick C

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Re: Table Talk revisited
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2012, 03:20:31 AM »
Spence,
I agree, table talk is part of the game. I think as long as conversation remains civil, it's okay. I mentioned this on a long ago post on this subject; "who ever said that you have to tell the truth about your hand in poker? Isn't a bluff a kind of lie?" You're trying to represent a hand that you don't have, and they should (please) fold :-X. I especially see nothing wrong with banter between two players when head to head, so long as it doesn't slow down the game.

Spence

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Re: Table Talk revisited
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2012, 04:10:27 PM »
Nick, We've argued before about the issues behind how many platyers in the hand dictating whether or not certain things were allowed I still don't feel like specifics should be discussed when heads-up but I do feel that the dealer needs to be a lot less involved in the enforcement under those conditions. I still don't know how the whole issue of truth and lies got started but I don't think it has any bearing whatsoever on how we rule against angle shooters or just plain banter. I'm not fishing for a new rule or an amendment to an existing one just some options from veteran TD's on training new staff or particular ways to better deal with chatter. When I was still a dealer I always drew the line when one person was doing all the talking. If several players were being overly chatty back and forth I let it go because they knew they were angling each other. When it was one guy doing all the talking it was stopped. Thoughts?

Nick C

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Re: Table Talk revisited
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2012, 08:43:00 PM »
Spence,
 One of the most ridiculous posts that I ever participated in was on this subject. "You can say this, but you can't say that!" One of the TD's wanted players to show their hands after the showdown to see if they were lying or not ??? IMO, It's too difficult to tell player's what they can or can not say...just tell them to not talk about the hand and play poker.

 

Spence

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Re: Table Talk revisited
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2012, 08:47:27 PM »
Spence,
 One of the most ridiculous posts that I ever participated in was on this subject. "You can say this, but you can't say that!" One of the TD's wanted players to show their hands after the showdown to see if they were lying or not ??? IMO, It's too difficult to tell player's what they can or can not say...just tell them to not talk about the hand and play poker.
That's is what my original post was drawing attention to. It is ridiculous to determine exactly what can and cannot be said as well as trying to police it. Shouldn't we though as TD's have some tools in our arsenal for dealing with these situations. Warnings? Again my issue is where do we draw the line?

Nick C

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Re: Table Talk revisited
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2012, 06:44:15 AM »
Spence,
 That is exactly why I feel the way I do about table talk that involves any discussion of the hand in progress...unless it's head-to-head. There is a difference, and I would always make it clear when other players are in the hand don't say any more or you will be penalized. Cash games lean more in the direction of poker etiquette, and a lot of the antics of tournament poker are just considered unethical. Tournament player's are locked-in, so to speak. They are stuck in their assigned seat and table and rely on the TD's to control players that bend the rules. They need protection from offending players. If I don't like the antics, or actions of a player in a cash game, I'll go to another table, or a different cardroom.

Spence

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Re: Table Talk revisited
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2012, 05:09:44 PM »
Nick,
That seems fair to me. I guess what you're getting at is that you want to take a tough approach on the tournament players and let the cash games run themselves. (within reason of course) I don't mind that. I think better safe than sorry in a tournament. I am much more likely to give harsh warnings and light penalties right off the bat to ensure that the players know I mean business. When it is the integrity of my room and tournament on the line no one is gonna mess around with that.