Author Topic: Jumping the gun after a raise is announced  (Read 20410 times)

Nick C

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Re: Jumping the gun after a raise is announced
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2012, 05:39:28 PM »
Stuart and K-Lo,
 Okay, I'll give in (a little) for now, but you'd better write it out and make sure it only applies to no-limit.

Spence

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Re: Jumping the gun after a raise is announced
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2012, 06:59:52 PM »
We rule the same as K-Lo here for the first rule. The second a little differently.
Under Example 1 they woldn't be allowed to fold as the raisers amount could change and thus affect course of play.
As for example 2 they are bound to the amount of a minimum raise. Once they here that the in turn raiser says 25,000!!!!!! If that person who said call folds he will still, by verbal obligation/declaration, be forced to put in a call for the minimum raise.

Nick C

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Re: Jumping the gun after a raise is announced
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2012, 09:21:02 PM »
I still don't like your way of thinking. How do you rule when a player says raise and the next player goes all-in? Doesn't that indicate that he's in no matter what? I'm sorry but as long as you act in turn after a player says raise, I see nothing wrong with a fold, call, or re-raise. That's when the amounts will be sorted out. Do we have any Youtube videos to support this? I'll bet you'll find a hell of a lot more players folding, after a raise is announced, without knowing the amount.

Spence

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Re: Jumping the gun after a raise is announced
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2012, 10:16:02 PM »
Perhaps they will in limit but in No-limit they shouldn't not be allowed to. It is a non-standard fold. I think the board should chime in and either shed some light or we need to broaden the scope of non-standard folding at the next summit.

Nick C

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Re: Jumping the gun after a raise is announced
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2012, 07:06:23 AM »
Spence,
 I agree that the non-standard fold should be discussed, but my definition of non-standard is folding when not facing a bet, not the situation we are discussing.

K-Lo

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Re: Jumping the gun after a raise is announced
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2012, 08:52:24 AM »
... as long as you act in turn after a player says raise, I see nothing wrong with a fold, call, or re-raise. That's when the amounts will be sorted out.

If you can re-raise as long the person before you has announced raise without yet stating the amount, how can you even determine the amount of a legal re-raise without knowing the amount of the previous raise?  If the re-raiser gives an amount but the original raiser hasn't, it isn't even possible to conclude whether the re-raise is sufficient or not.  I think it would be strange to allow action to continue until the amount of the previous bet is fully defined, not to mention the problems like the ones Stuart and I mentioned which fails to protect others in the hand (particularly when the next person folds as opposed to calling a yet unknown bet).

Anyhow, let's change the topic slightly.

Three-handed, SB, short-stacked BB, and button.  Two checks, and it is the button's turn, and he is taking a long time.  Small Blind says to the button "hurry up and do something.  it's your turn.  what are you going to do".  Button says "well, I'm definitely not folding".  Small blind says "OK", and folds.  Action out of turn or not?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2012, 08:58:47 AM by K-Lo »

Nick C

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Re: Jumping the gun after a raise is announced
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2012, 10:32:07 AM »
K-Lo,
 I know what you would do. You would hold the button to at least a minimum bet, and throw the SB out of the tournament ;D When I see something like that happen I'll deal with it based on the history of the players involved.

 As far as my example of a player re-raising an unknown amout...well I think you know what I meant.

K-Lo

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Re: Jumping the gun after a raise is announced
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2012, 02:08:08 PM »
Well in any event, I am more concerned with people folding before previous players' turns have been completed (which IMO includes finalizing the size of a bet or raise) than prematurely calling/re-raising.  I can think of dozens of situations where it would be unfair to the players who are left to defend against the raise if players in between fold without waiting.  In contrast, I can hardly think of any justification that would persuade me that players should be given the right to fold before the amount of a raise from a preceding player is finalized.

To be honest, I didn't think that we needed clarification in the Rules for this one as I thought we'd all agree on what constitutes a "turn", but perhaps it wouldn't hurt:

45:   Non-Standard Folds
Anytime before the end of the last betting round of a hand, folding in turn when facing a check not facing a bet or before the amount of a bet or raise is determined (no-limit/pot-limit), or folding out of turn, are both binding folds and may be subject to penalty.

Nick C

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Re: Jumping the gun after a raise is announced
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2012, 05:06:51 PM »
K-Lo,
 I actually find this humorous, TDA Rule #45 is one of the rules I like. You are suggesting a change.  I'll stick my neck out and give my definition of a player's turn to act.
 No-limit: After the active player on your right acts, you may:
                    a.) If a bet is made you may fold, call, or raise.
                    b.) If you are facing a check, you may check or bet.
          Finally
                    c.) If you are first to act you my check, or bet.
 What keeps us apart is whether a player that announces his intention to raise, should be recognized as a complete action until the amount is stated, or pushed into the betting area.
  I'm thinking that once the player announces that he is raising, he has acted because he can not retract his bet! In my opinion waiting for the player to announce how much he is going to raise will only waste time and slow the game down needlessly.

K-Lo

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Re: Jumping the gun after a raise is announced
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2012, 05:48:33 PM »
What keeps us apart is whether a player that announces his intention to raise, should be recognized as a complete action until the amount is stated, or pushed into the betting area.
  I'm thinking that once the player announces that he is raising, he has acted because he can not retract his bet! In my opinion waiting for the player to announce how much he is going to raise will only waste time and slow the game down needlessly.

Hi Nick:  I agree that this is where we disagree.  Unfortunately, in a No-Limit game, I do not think the last statement is correct.

I have seen first hand the issues of perceived unfairness that can arise when players do not wait. As I've noted in my previous examples, the amount is an integral part of all wagers in a no-limit game, as there is a huge difference in the nature of a raise when it is to 3BB or to 200BB.  I respect your opinion, but at this point, I hope to get the support of the other TDs on this issue.

-K
« Last Edit: March 10, 2012, 05:54:04 PM by K-Lo »

Spence

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Re: Jumping the gun after a raise is announced
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2012, 06:13:54 PM »
I wouldn't like the next player to announce re-raise either as that may change what the original raiser bets. In this circumstance though they are proably only costing themselves money by not hearing a defined bet from the initial raiser. Is that punishment enough for what could be considered as out of turn betting?
I am still adamant that folding without the raise being finalized is a violation.

Nick C

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Re: Jumping the gun after a raise is announced
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2012, 07:15:48 PM »
Gentlemen,
 Even an out of turn fold is binding, TDA Rule #35. There is no written rule that I have ever seen that supports your argument. Perhaps you can convince others to see it your way and a new rule can be written at the next Summit. If that happens, I'll just add it to the long list of current rules I don't support.