Author Topic: Fouled deck  (Read 7216 times)

edfrzr

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Fouled deck
« on: February 26, 2012, 08:36:33 PM »
Help!!.

We had a very unusaul situation at our league. Dealer deals the flop. UTG bets and two other players fold. Before the pot can be raked the dealer realizes and makes it know that he dealt the flop from the wrong deck. There were no pre-flop raises and the players who folded could not easily identify their cards from the muck.

What do we do?

Thanks,

Ed

ew2484

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Re: Fouled deck
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2012, 12:54:16 AM »
I assume this came up because the dealer shuffles the 2nd deck while dealing from the first one? if this is the case, there wont be any tda rule anywhere regarding this situation. To the best of my ability tho, if both hands are irretrievably mucked (mixed into muck) the hands cant be returned. whether or not it is considered a "foul deck" and all bets returned, or whether UTG just rakes the pot is up for debate. (not much of an answer i know, but i cant think of any time ive ever seen this happen with action after the incorrect deck)

Nick C

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Re: Fouled deck
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2012, 06:27:52 AM »
ew2484 and edfrzr,
 Refund all bets, fix the mess, and do it over again. I'm not understanding what you mean when you say "before the pot can be raked?" Can you explain? and let us know how you handled it.

K-Lo

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Re: Fouled deck
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2012, 07:48:32 AM »
Agreed with Nick.

The closest rule is probably Robert's Rule #3 on irregularities:

3.   If a card with a different color back appears during a hand, all action is void and all chips in the pot are returned to the respective bettors.

I believes this rule captures the spirit of your situation.  Particularly, if the "wrong deck" had a different color backing, then this rule seems to be apply directly.

I am guessing since it is a league game, the dealer is probably dealing from one deck while the other is shuffled to "speed things up".  Hopefully, you weren't using two decks of the same color backing and keeping them close together during a deal... The hand would still be void, but I would suggest that if you do choose to use more than one deck, never use more than one of the same color deck per table!  :)

chet

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Re: Fouled deck
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2012, 08:34:56 AM »
I think the question is unclear as to the situation.  For example:  Is the deck "fouled" because;

A.  the dealer used the wrong deck?,
B.  the dealer mixed cards from the two decks together?,
C.  the dealer dealt the hole cards from one deck and the flop from another (If this happened, I really think this person shouldn't be allowed to deal)?

In my opinion, these would be resolved as follows:

For situation A, if the dealer just used the wrong deck, let the hand play out and change decks for the next hand.  So what, if the same deck is used for two hands in a row?

For situation B and C, this would be a "fouled" deck and as Nick and K-Lo said, the hand is void, all bets returned and the hand replayed with the correct cards/deck.

Chet

edfrzr

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Re: Fouled deck
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2012, 02:07:29 PM »
Thanks for the help. Some of you are reading way too much into this.

1. What i meant about the pot being raked is  -- before the bettor could rake after the others folded.
2. Yes, we are using two different colored decks and yes the dealer deals as the other is shuffled. In this sitiuation the dealer reached down and flopped the cards without realizing he had the incorrect deck in his hand. A bet was made and all hands were folded except the bettor before it was realized the incorrect deck had been flopped. In addition, all folded cards were in the muck and not easily identifiable.
3. The way I handled it was to refund all bets and replay the hand with a newly shuffled deck. (same dealer) I felt that held the integrity of the game.

thanks again, guys.

ED

K-Lo

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Re: Fouled deck
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2012, 02:34:59 PM »
Yes, we are using two different colored decks and yes the dealer deals as the other is shuffled. In this sitiuation the dealer reached down and flopped the cards without realizing he had the incorrect deck in his hand.

I had thought as much.  A common occurrence in pass-the-deal type games.  Your decision was spot on.

Stuart Murray

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Re: Fouled deck
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2012, 02:42:52 PM »
agreed with Nick and K-Lo, refund everyone what they put in, and start again, and on another note, ditch the second deck!

Regards
Stuart

Nick C

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Re: Fouled deck
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2012, 03:16:59 PM »
Ed,
 I fully understand your situation with two decks. I'm having a problem with the part about the rake? Are you saying that you rake each pot in a tournament? Can you explain? Thanks.

K-Lo

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Re: Fouled deck
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2012, 03:38:36 PM »
Ed,
 I fully understand your situation with two decks. I'm having a problem with the part about the rake? Are you saying that you rake each pot in a tournament? Can you explain? Thanks.

I could be wrong, but I don't think Ed means "rake" as in "collect a portion of the pot for the house"; I think what he means is that the situation was discovered before the pot was awarded.  In informal games, I even see rec players "grabbing" the pot all the time after they've won, without even waiting for the dealer to push the pot (bad).  So, I'm guessing given that this is probably a rec league or home game situation, I think he probably meant "rake" in a colloquial sense, as in before the bettor had a chance to "collect the chips of the pot", perhaps because that's what it kind of looks like.   Just a guess though. 

edfrzr

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Re: Fouled deck
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2012, 04:59:25 AM »
Correct K-Lo. But in our game the dealer always awards the pot.

Thanks all.

ED

Nick C

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Re: Fouled deck
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2012, 05:48:24 PM »
Ed,
 The dealer should always award the pot or push the pot to the winner. I've heard "rake in the pot" so that's probably it.