Author Topic: Question  (Read 10063 times)

edfrzr

  • TDA Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Question
« on: February 28, 2012, 05:03:48 AM »
How do you handle it when the dealer (self-dealt) burns 2 cards pre-flop, throws them in the muck and they are not retrievable or identifiable? We have instructed everyone to always keep the burn cards separate.

I think there was a full moon out that night as we usually have no issues.

thanks,

ED

mooredog

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 90
Re: Question
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2012, 05:50:03 AM »
If dealer has not put out the flop yet I'd have him/her put out 2 cards (since they would've been part of the flop if no error) and then shuffle up the rest of the stub and with no burn put out the 3rd flop card. If he put out flop I'd probably use a modified version of the 4 cards in flop rule by turning the flop over, scramble the cards, pull one card out, leaving 2 possibly true flop cards out there, then continue with the procedure used in the first example. Not much else you can do. Sometimes in the interest of fairness you just have to get creative. this should get lots of head scratching.

K-Lo

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 869
  • @AskTheTD on Twitter
    • Ask the Tournament Director
Re: Question
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2012, 08:19:12 AM »
How do you handle it when the dealer (self-dealt) burns 2 cards pre-flop, throws them in the muck and they are not retrievable or identifiable? We have instructed everyone to always keep the burn cards separate.

I think there was a full moon out that night as we usually have no issues.

thanks,

ED

Ed:  Could you clarify at what point in the hand is this discovered, and in particular, how many cards (if any) have been exposed?  E.g.  Just before the flop is to be dealt, after the flop is dealt? after the turn/river/showdown?

Stuart Murray

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 645
Re: Question
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2012, 08:38:45 AM »
If it is discovered during the flop period, I would miss burning a card for the turn so it keeps the turn and river correct.

Substantial Action is the biggest consideration for what you do with too many burn cards, RROP is very specific in that you should keep as many board cards correct as possible in as fair a way as possible, so not burning for the turn means there is only 1 incorrect card playing on the board and still gives sufficient randomness to the community cards.

Regards
Stuart

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3359
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Question
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2012, 08:56:15 AM »
I agree with Stuart, if the flop were on the table before substantial action occured.

edfrzr

  • TDA Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: Question
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2012, 12:32:32 PM »
The errror occurred pre flop.  Thanks all.

K-Lo

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 869
  • @AskTheTD on Twitter
    • Ask the Tournament Director
Re: Question
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2012, 03:25:41 PM »
In that case, I would proceed to deal the three cards for the flop (without reshuffling), and after betting action on the flop has been completed, deal the turn card without burning.  And then burn and deal the river as normal.  This keeps 4 out of the 5 board cards the same as if no error had occurred.  In my view, this is definitely preferable over reshuffling the deck with the muck, only to have mucked cards re-appear on the flop, turn or river.

As an aside for the other Rule theorists on the forum, I should note (as Stuart rightly points out) that Robert's Rules (Holdem #6) explicitly says that in general where no cards or multiple cards are burned, "subsequent cards dealt should be those that would have come if no error had occurred", and this does seem to be the fairest solution.  However, there is a seemingly contradictory rule (RROP Holdem #4) that says in pre-flop situations specifically, if two/zero cards are burned and boardcards are exposed, the deck "must be reshuffled if any boardcards were exposed".  I think the idea of reshuffling the flop in general is a bit antiquated and losing favor, as somewhat evidenced by the new TDA rule dealing with four-card flops, and I would go out on a limb to say that the current trend is that a reshuffle that would almost certainly result in a wholly different flop is no longer the choice of TDs except under the rarest of circumstances.

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3359
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Question
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2012, 05:42:47 PM »
Okay, so now I've got it! The betting round is complete and the dealer burns two cards into the muck ??? before he puts the flop on the table, and that's when the error is noticed. Nice going, the dealer has just created a no win situation for the floor. You can make any call you want and the players that lose will be pissed and the winner might even complain, too. The muck and the burn should be as far apart as possible. That's just one of my complaints about the way too many cardrooms go against traditional procedures.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 06:26:05 PM by Nick C »

Stuart Murray

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 645
Re: Question
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2012, 06:34:37 AM »
With no definitive way of identifying the two erroneously burned cards, I would still go with my original post, and miss a burn card for the turn.

Regards
Stu