Author Topic: Player misses small blind  (Read 8018 times)

RockyPhillips

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Player misses small blind
« on: January 15, 2012, 09:50:39 AM »
Player misses small blind
Final table first hand (self dealt tournament) BB is eliminated, next hand dead small and big blind, next hand button gets pushed to next player (not dead deal) hand is played out with player missing small blind start of next hand a player says we missed the dead deal position player x did not post a small blind. Tournament Director called.  :o That's me.

Thanks very much, each day I click on "unread since last visit" and read up on all tha bannter and situations it helps keep the rules fresh in my head. We run a biweekly tournament league of 100 players with a points race to a championship.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2012, 09:52:24 AM by RockyPhillips »

Nick C

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Re: Player misses small blind
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2012, 11:27:39 AM »
RockyPhillips,

 Welcome to the Forum. I'm not an expert on self dealt games but, I would think it is too late to do anything about a missed SB from a previous hand.

chet

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Re: Player misses small blind
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2012, 12:26:50 PM »
If it was a cash game, the player would have to sit out one hand, until the button passes and then he could come back in by posting a "dead" small. 

Personally, in this case, since this is a tournament, I would not make him sit out the button, but I would make him post a dead small blind on the next hand so that there would be as follows: 

Player A - Button + Small Blind (dead)
Player B - Small Blind (live)
Player C - Big Blind (live)

In my opinion, having to post the dead small is penalty enough.

Now lets see what everyone else has to say  ;D

RockyPhillips

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Re: Player misses small blind
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2012, 01:04:06 PM »
As I said this was the final table of a 100 person tournament the blinds were high 5,000/10,000
I asked the player to post a small blind the next hand so as not to have gained an advantage.

Nick C

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Re: Player misses small blind
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2012, 03:34:09 PM »
RockyPhillips,

 Sounds like the player had no objection, so your decision was perfectly acceptable.

K-Lo

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Re: Player misses small blind
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2012, 06:49:34 PM »
I believe it has been suggested that the SB should post a dead small.  I would not make the same ruling, but I may have misunderstood the situation.

Just to make sure I understand the scenario correctly:

Hand #1: Assume Seat 1 (Button), Seat 2 (SB), Seat 3 (BB).  Seat 3 is eliminated.
Hand #2: Seat 2 (Button), Seat 3 (vacant - dead small), Seat 4 (BB).
Hand #3 IF played correctly:  Seat 3 (vacant - dead button), Seat 4 (SB), Seat 5 (BB).
Hand #4 IF played correctly:  Seat 4 (button), Seat 5 (SB), Seat 6 (BB).

However, what actually happened, was the "correct" hand #3 was skipped, and action went straight to "correct" hand #4, with Seat 4 thus missing SB.  If this is what happened, we should note that Seat #5 also missed his BB as well.

In this case, I would bring the button back to Seat 3, and play out the hand with Seat 4 as SB and Seat 5 as BB.  On the next hand, the button will skip ahead to Seat 5, with SB and BB being posted as normal, thus resuming the normal rotation of the button.  Essentially, we played both "correct" hands #3 and #4, just out of order in this case due to the incorrect placement of a button.

Robert's Rules:
IRREGULARITIES
1. In button games, if it is discovered that the button was placed incorrectly on the previous hand, the button and blinds will be corrected for the new hand in a manner that gives every player one chance for each position on the round (if possible).

Spence

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Re: Player misses small blind
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2012, 08:18:28 PM »
If K-Lo has it right then that is the best procedure. I have to do this once or twice a month so it's a simple enough thing to do. In RRoP where he states "the new hand in a manner that gives every player one chance for each position on the round" I always make it understoond that every player must post both a small and big blind before receiving the button. It is very important that every player pay every blind per round as this can create a huge enough advantage(especially this late in a tournament at 5,000-10,000) that could possibly change the outcome of the tournament as a whole.

Nick C

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Re: Player misses small blind
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2012, 08:51:25 AM »
The situation described in the original post needed a little more information for me. If I figured it out correctly, that scenario took 3 hands to enfold. The BB is elliminated (hand #1). The next hand moves the button to the left and there is a dead SB (hand #2)...So the next hand (#3) is when the SB failed to post. This hand will be dealt by the same player that dealt the previous hand. Wow, this is always difficult to describe when you're not at the table?

K-lo, did a great job of breaking down the scenario hand by hand. The only fact that could be mentioned is the player that deals 2 hands in a row

 I will assume that you could actually deal two hands in a row if the SB busts-out during your deal, Right?

Stuart...help!



RockyPhillips

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Re: Player misses small blind
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2012, 01:47:33 PM »
K-Lo is correct in an effort to catch and correct the error with seat 4, seat 5 skipped the big blind unknowingly (at least to me), seat 5 was at the time chip leader and was eliminated in 3rd.

Below is what should have happened and as I thought about it later over and over in my mind that is what I thought.

In this case, I would bring the button back to Seat 3, and play out the hand with Seat 4 as SB and Seat 5 as BB. On the next hand, the button will skip ahead to Seat 5, with SB and BB being posted as normal, thus resuming the normal rotation of the button. Essentially, we played both "correct" hands #3 and #4, just out of order in this case due to the incorrect placement of a button.

Robert's Rules:
IRREGULARITIES
1. In button games, if it is discovered that the button was placed incorrectly on the previous hand, the button and blinds will be corrected for the new hand in a manner that gives every player one chance for each position on the round (if possible).

K-Lo

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Re: Player misses small blind
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2012, 03:41:01 PM »
K-Lo is correct in an effort to catch and correct the error with seat 4, seat 5 skipped the big blind unknowingly (at least to me), seat 5 was at the time chip leader and was eliminated in 3rd.

Funny how the chip leader never spoke up that he missed the Big Blind... what a surprise!   ;)

As an additional note, in Rocky's particular case, it is easy to see how the Dealer could have made the mistake and forget about the "dead button" because of the bust out of Seat #3. 

In general, however, I have observed that whenever I have to make this type of ruling that changes the path of the button, it is usually because someone near the button had moved the button without the Dealer knowing it, either before or after the Dealer moves the button himself.  Most players who do that think that they are doing the Dealer a favor by moving the button.  A handful may try to do it intentionally to avoid the SB.  In any case, after I make this ruling, I will usually tell the players to let the Dealer do his job and move the button, and ask the players not to move the button to avoid these situations from happening again.