Author Topic: Premature flop (again)  (Read 8031 times)

K-Lo

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Premature flop (again)
« on: January 13, 2012, 09:47:44 AM »
Here's some food for the thought before the weekend...

We had a similar discussion on another thread on how to deal with prematurely-dealt flops.  Some interpret RROP strictly (anytime the flop is dealt prematurely, it must be redealt), and some would refuse to redeal the flop especially if the dealer did his job of announcing players, rapping & tapping, etc.  I note that there was some reference of treating the dealer's rap & tap as one action, but I can't find this in the Rules, and I note that Substantial Action defines various actions explicitly now (ck, b, r, c, f) which of course do not include any dealer's actions.

Personally, I felt that there should be something in the Rules that puts an onus on a player to prevent irregularities from occurring, speak up without delay once e.g. he realizes that a flop/turn/river is about to be dealt when he hasn't taken his turn yet, or he realizes that the players/dealers are acting on misinformation regarding the amount of his bet, etc.  He is in the best situation to prevent a problem from occurring.  I thought that if there is any undue delay, he should lose his right to request any corrective action.  Some have said that we can enforce this via Rule 1, but I would prefer something explicit.

Anyways, with these points in mind, I had to consider the following scenario:

Blinds are 100-200.  The Big Blind has posted a 1000 chip.  Action folds to the cutoff who raises to 600.  Button calls.  SB folds.  Action is on BB who throws in another 100 chip.  The dealer brings the bets and gives the BB a 500 chip for change.  The dealer announces "3 players", does his rap & tap, and then deals out the flop -- 3 hearts.  At this point, there is some discussion and the Floor is called.

The Floorperson is given the above explanation, except the Dealer also indicates that he thought he heard the BB say call, which is why he gave the BB change.  The BB, however, indicates that he said "1100", and apparently at least one neighbouring player also heard him say "1100".  The Floorperson asks the table where the 500 chip that was given as change is... the BB explains that he put it back in his stack when the Dealer tossed it to him "I did raise - I didn't know what the change was for, but I took it anyways because it was given to me".  The Dealer's "error" in interpreting the raise as a call was not brought to the attention of the table until after the flop was dealt.

Your decision?  Re-deal the flop or not?

« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 09:54:04 AM by K-Lo »

JasperToo

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Re: Premature flop (again)
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2012, 02:07:51 PM »
I think that rule 36 and 44 speak directly to this situation.  I believe it is entirely on the BB to say "What the heck is this $500 chip for Dealer? I raised" (I do think the dealer should have asked what the extra chip meant, but the rules put it on the player).

The flop stays, the bet is just a call.  Play moves on.

Nick C

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Re: Premature flop (again)
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2012, 02:28:24 PM »
K-Lo,
 I'll jump in. The BB should have clarified his intention that he raised. I realize the dealer could have made a mistake but, obviously he thought the BB was calling. Under the circumstances, tap and burn and placement of the proper flop, I rule the flop stands. It is too easy for players to prevent this problem, by clarifying their intention to raise!
 I put most of the blame on dealers that don't pay attention, or just don't care. However, I don't think it's asking too much for a player to say "raise" or "call," loud enough for everyone to hear. How do you raise, and then accept the 500 chip returned from the dealer? There should have been ample time for the BB, or any player that thought they heard  the BB, to speak up. I think it's the best way to teach a lesson to some of the player's that attribute to these problems because of their bad habits. Honestly, what player would not want the "proper board" unless they were taking a shot! Every poker rulebook I've ever looked at makes reference to player's making their intentions clear, and obviously, this player didn't. The board stands, and I'll bet he'll make his raise clear the next time.

While I was typing Jaspertoo responded...Wow! We agree :) Way to go.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 02:36:18 PM by Nick C »

Spence

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Re: Premature flop (again)
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2012, 09:17:29 PM »
Taking back the 500 chip coupled with the fact that the player had ample time to speak up before the dealer exposed the flop would deny him the right to raise. This player obviously did not like the flop and was trying to get a reshuffle. I see this kind of play all the time and rarely do I bend on how I rule these situations. My room will not be taken advantage of by underhanded play and no one should have to deal with these kinds of players. We recently gave a three month ban to a player who was consistently hiding his cards (and chips on occasion) and asking for redeals. Why is it so difficult for some people to play with integrity!?

Stuart Murray

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Re: Premature flop (again)
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2012, 06:04:10 AM »
Hi K-Lo,

I don't think this is a premature flop, I think this is an error on the BB's behalf for not making his intentions clear.  600 Stands as the bet pre-flop and the board stands for me. If he really wanted it to be 1100 total pre (which is not much of a 3-bet with an open 2-bet to 600 and a call from the button) he would of objected when he got the 500 back, also he used a single chip pre-flop.

Regards
Stu

K-Lo

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Re: Premature flop (again)
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2012, 10:06:48 PM »
Thank you all for agreeing!  :)

In the actual situation, I had told the offender that he had an obligation to protect the other players at the table by making it be known that the Dealer was about to commit an error.  By accepting the change, he didn't do that, so even if the Dealer was fault for not hearing (assuming that was even the case), he also contributed to the error.  In that scenario, there is no way I am re-dealing the flop. :)

Cheers, all!