Author Topic: Dealer error  (Read 8509 times)

mom4jessi

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Dealer error
« on: December 18, 2011, 05:36:52 PM »
What would you do if the dealer exposes the burn card before action is complete?

chet

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Re: Dealer error
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2011, 05:44:58 PM »
mom4jessi:  You need to clarify the specific circumstances present when you say 'before action is complete".  Does that mean that no one has yet acted?  Does that mean that 1 or 2 players have acted (check or bet) but several are yet to act? Does that mean that all but one player have acted?  Given the definition of "substantial action" used by the TDA it makes a difference.  So you need to explain what players have acted (and how) prior to the card being exposed and what player are yet to act.

Then I am sure you will get a number of responses, including one to "shoot the dealer"  :)

mom4jessi

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Re: Dealer error
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2011, 05:52:29 PM »
One person bet...2 people yet to call .... and it was on the river. 
and yes...we thought about your last idea!

Nick C

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Re: Dealer error
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2011, 07:21:56 PM »
Three players left with one card to come...Player A bets, the dealer burns before the two remaining players even call, and then to make matters worse, the dealer exposes the burn, correct? Hmm...I can tell you what I would do, but I'm sure others might not agree. This of course, would depend on the situation happening the way I described it.

There are two options that I think would be in the best interest of the game.
        1.) I would allow Player A to retract his bet. If he chooses not to, the remaining players will have all options open to them, fold, call, or raise.
                                  OR
        2.) Offer each player the option to continue betting (including Player A), or declare themselves in for all prior bets. There could be a side pot if only two players want to continue betting.

 

K-Lo

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Re: Dealer error
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2011, 10:37:23 PM »
I'm still unclear about the situation.  Does "on the river" mean during the final round of betting?

In Nick's situation, I can see the merit in offering player A an option to be all-in, but does that have to before anyone else acts?  In any event, I think the Rules are silent on this issue...?

Nick C

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Re: Dealer error
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2011, 07:34:49 AM »
K-Lo,
 If I understood the situation correctly, Player A was initiating the third betting round-another will follow-after the other two players call Player A's bet. The options that I suggested must be finalized before the river card is exposed.

K-Lo

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Re: Dealer error
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2011, 08:40:11 AM »
Would you wait until B & C have acted before offering A the option of being all-in?  (It might not matter if B & C both just call/fold and do not raise)  Or would you force A to exercise the option before B & C act?

Nick C

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Re: Dealer error
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2011, 09:19:49 AM »
K-Lo,
 Player A must have the first option to retract his bet, or not. This is the only way for proper action to follow, such as raising, for example. Remember, the remaining player's might not even call to see the river.



K-Lo

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Re: Dealer error
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2011, 09:23:22 AM »
K-Lo,
 Player A must have the first option to retract his bet, or not. This is the only way for proper action to follow, such as raising, for example. Remember, the remaining player's might not even call to see the river.

I was actually thinking about your second suggestion, where A would have the option of being all-in for previous bets.  Would that option have to be exercised before the next players act?  Do you think that would put A at even a greater disadvantage (players most likely to call knowing that A is all-in)?

Nick C

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Re: Dealer error
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2011, 10:29:30 AM »
K-Lo,

 It might cost him chips if he were to win the hand anyway but, not a disadvantage, at least I don't see it that way. In order to fully understand this, I think we could go over a few scenarios that should help us understand it better.
Let's look at these two examples and see if it makes my suggestion the best solution:
#1 You are Player A, there are two other players. You are holding  Ks, Js. The flop is 7s, Qs, 9s. The turn is the 3h. There's only one hand that can beat you at this point. You make a bet and before the other players act, the dealer exposes the final burn card, the Ace of spades!....pretty significant card, don't you think?
#2  Same hand only the exposed burn is the deuce of clubs.    Rather insignificant...right?
I know there are many that want the rules to be consistent but you have to understand that extreme situations occur that require us to put logic first. There are always consequences when mistakes are made. This is a very rare happening, for sure. The decisions I suggest would be fair and would offer the best protection to all players.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 11:54:20 AM by Nick C »

K-Lo

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Re: Dealer error
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2011, 10:27:18 PM »
OK, I can buy that. 

But first, to clarify, the situation originally posed is not explicitly covered under the rules, is it?

Second, if we were thinking of coming up with a rule that covers this situation, I'd be more inclined with option 2 as I'm not a huge fan of retracting bets:

Nick wrote:  2.) Offer each player the option to continue betting (including Player A), or declare themselves in for all prior bets. There could be a side pot if only two players want to continue betting.

Wouldn't it make sense to only offer players who have placed chips in the pot in that betting round the option to be all in for prior bets?  I would have no problem for that.  If someone has not yet called the outstanding bet, I wouldn't give them any option.

Nick C

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Re: Dealer error
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2011, 03:57:08 AM »
K-Lo,
 You are correct about the rule. I don't think there is one that covers this exact situation. My decision to allow Player A all options is based on the information given to all players from the exposed turn card. I guess it would be fair to ask, would Player A have taken the same action, if he had seen the card first? Why should he be subjected to raises? He did no wrong.

 This is what rule #1 is for. Too many of us use it to bend rules instead of using a rule that best serves the interest of the game.

 I will copy a sentence from Chuck Ferry's great little book: RULES OF POKER....The rules are primarily designed not as punishment for irregularities, but rather as redress for damage.

 In the original situation, the total blame is with the dealer so players should be protected from further financial loss. That's how I see it. Players could be upset with the dealer, or with the outcome of the hand, but I doubt there would be any objection to the decision of the floor, if the options I mentioned were used.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 06:25:02 AM by Nick C »