Author Topic: Dealer Error: Early turn card  (Read 7173 times)

Spence

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Dealer Error: Early turn card
« on: December 03, 2011, 10:08:33 PM »
While all of us should know how to deal with this situation I seems to be having a brain lapse about a particular case. If the dealer does accidentally burn and turn with a player not yet having called we reshuffle. The thing that I am having trouble with is what is the circumstance where the board card will play or won't play depending on what the missed players action is. If the missed player simply did not get a chance to fold do we still reshuffle? If substantial action is taken then what are the missed players options? Does he have a dead hand? Can he still call the previous bet to reshuffle the board card that has been acted on?
I'm not feeling well and it's very late here so I hope that some of this makes sense. The most important issue is if the missed player wants to fold do we reshuffle the exposed turn card? If we do not, what is the circumstance where we must still reshuffle even though he folds. I'm almost certain there is one but it is not coming to mind.
Go away cold... :-[

Nick C

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Re: Dealer Error: Early turn card
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2011, 10:54:53 PM »
Spence,
 Those are all great situations for discussion. The problem comes from premature dealing, and that's probably where you will find it in one of the rule books. I'll dig it up later. This is an issue that I wanted to discuss at the Summit this year but we never had the time.
 When the dealer burns and turns before the last player on that betting round has a chance act, the new board card or flop can not play. The exception to that rule is if the skipped player were in the act of folding before the new board card is turned. The old rule had something to do with no player ever being able to make a decision on calling or folding, or certainly not raising after knowing the identity of the next card. Even if the skipped player decides to fold, the board card must be re-dealt.
 I'm glad you brought this one up because there will be a lot to talk about. I wanted to change the language on the current rules because I feel that it only applies to the last bettor. If any other player is skipped, followed by substantial action, then the skipped player should have a dead hand.

 One of the problems that I'm having comes from the new and improved rule for substantial action. My thinking is, the dealer should count as a player if he condons the out of turn action. If the dealer is not considered there is no possibility for substantial action in a head to head contest.

 Spence, I think I covered your questions but just in case:
If the missed player simply did not get a chance to fold do we still reshuffle?....YES, unless he was in the act of folding before the card is turned

 If substantial action is taken then what are the missed players options?....I RULE THEIR HAND DEAD AND NO RE-SHUFFLE

Spence

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Re: Dealer Error: Early turn card
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2011, 11:51:05 PM »
Nick, I agree that if substantial ation occurs then the missed player should have a dead hand. More than enough time has passed for him to speak up. I spoke to another supervisor who was on his way on shift tonight and he had some interesting insight on some other scenarios as well.
Let's suppose that there is a big raise and one player who is holding a small pocket pair is missed. He sees that his card comes on the turn and was going to call the bet but will now fold knowing that the chance of the dealer reshuffling and dealing his card is just as bad as him trying to hit it earlier. If I am 7% to hit my set and I am missed then, see my set card come on the turn, I will fold knowing that it is not worth calling whatever the bet was to try and hit my 7% again with a reshuffle. Should then, even though that player chooses to fold, we reshuffle the turn back in for the other players in the hand? (it is assumed that the other players and the dealer would not have knowledge of the missed players set)
As well could there be an issue of collusion here that would force us to always reshuffle even though the other player is claiming that they wished to fold their hand before the turn card dropped? I think that may be the best reasoning to ALWAYS reshuffle even when the missed player is folding.

Nick C

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Re: Dealer Error: Early turn card
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2011, 09:50:47 AM »
Spence,
 Your scenario: Let's suppose that there is a big raise and one player who is holding a small pocket pair is missed. He sees that his card comes on the turn and was going to call the bet but will now fold knowing that the chance of the dealer reshuffling and dealing his card is just as bad as him trying to hit it earlier. If I am 7% to hit my set and I am missed then, see my set card come on the turn, I will fold knowing that it is not worth calling whatever the bet was to try and hit my 7% again with a reshuffle. Should then, even though that player chooses to fold, we reshuffle the turn back in for the other players in the hand? (it is assumed that the other players and the dealer would not have knowledge of the missed players set)

 There are several ways you can look at the situation of your card being re-shuffled and coming up again. How about the fact that, at least you know it's still in the deck stub!

One of the consiquences of the dealer's mistake for pre-mature dealing is,  no player that was skipped can say," Oh I was going to fold anyway." That's not an option. The board card still will not be allowed to play, whether he calls or decides to fold. The exception is if the player were in the act of tossing his cards into the muck, or pushing them in the direction of the muck before the card is turned. That's why dealer's "tap" before they burn a card. It's like saying "Okay, here we go!"

 Bottom line: Some dealer's need to slow down and player's need to be alert and know when it's their turn to act. I hope this is not a regular occurance in any cardroom.

K-Lo

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Re: Dealer Error: Early turn card
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2011, 12:48:43 PM »
Agree with Nick C. 100% on all counts. 

In my view, the turn card must be redealt as long as any player had any options outstanding once the turn card is revealed.  In the exception that Nick mentions, the fold was already initiated before the turn card was revealed, so that player had no more options anyways - no need to reshuffle.  You never want to have a situation where someone can, with the benefit of seeing the turn card, announce what they would have done in retrospect, and then decide to reshuffle or not on that basis.

According to RROP Irregularities Rule 16, if any action occurs after the turn card is dealt, the missed player's hand is dead.  As you noted, the missed player had plenty of time to speak up but didn't, so he has no one to blame but himself.  But sometimes I also get the other players still in the hand complaining that the card has to be reshuffled, "he was going to fold anyways", "it's not my fault he missed his turn", etc., usually because the card benefits them.  At that point, I usually remind them they also have an ongoing obligation to protect the other players in the hand and in the tournament, and this includes pointing out when other players still in the hand may have been skipped by the dealer.