Author Topic: Player calls for a substantially incorrect amount  (Read 6072 times)

PaulaN

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Player calls for a substantially incorrect amount
« on: November 26, 2011, 08:13:22 PM »
Hi Folks.  I hope you can help me with this home tourney question. I've done extensive reading but would very much appreciate your input.
I recently played in a multi-table NLHE tournament where there was a TD but no dealers.  (Forgive me if I give you more detail than necessary)

Blinds are 400/800.  Player on the BUTTON raises to 1600. BB calls.
FLOP:  BB checks, BUTTON bets $1500, BB rasies to $4000, BUTTON calls
TURN:  BB bets $6000 (1 x $5000 chip + 1 x $1000 chip).  BUTTON places $1500 (1 x $500 + 1 x $1000 chip) in the pot. 

It's pointed out that the bet is $6000. 

BUTTON says "Oh I thought it was only $1500. No, I can't call that", pulls the $1500 back towards them and motions to fold.
TD catches the player and instructs that withdrawing the call is not an option, that they are bound by their action and must make the call for the correct amount.
(It might not be relevant but BUTTON went on to win the pot by hitting trips on the river with what had been 2nd pair up to that point and beating BB's 2 pair on the flop)

Regardless of the outcome of this hand I think it was inevitable that one or other player's interests were going to be injured by the TD's decision.  I would have hoped that the TD in this instance could have interpreted "gross-misunderstanding" and used Rule 1 in a way that bought the hand to the same conclusion that would most likely have occurred if the player had NOT made the mistake about the amount of the bet they were facing.  That is, either allowing BUTTON to retract the bet and fold or, even if wishing to take a harder line, allowing/requiring them to fold and leave the $1500 in the pot.

I'd appreciate your thoughts.

chet

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Re: Player calls for a substantially incorrect amount
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2011, 09:02:20 PM »
PaulaN:

I would be inclined to agree with your second option, ie., the Button has two choices, a) leave the 1500 in the pot and fold (essentially forfeiting the 1500) or b) putting the full 6000 in the pot for a call.  I would NOT allow him to raise.  Since the 1500 is "in the pot", I do not believe that he can withdraw that amount and fold.

Chet

Spence

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Re: Player calls for a substantially incorrect amount
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2011, 09:29:31 PM »
I don't really like the newer rules about accepted action. I'm glad we are not condoning those rules here. There should have been an option to fulfill the calling amount of 6000 or if the player wanted to fold then the 1500 stays in. The TD should not have forced the call.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 10:13:17 PM by Spence »

JasperToo

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Re: Player calls for a substantially incorrect amount
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2011, 09:56:39 AM »
I believe that TDA rule #34 applies perfectly.  The chips stay in the pot because the player was acting in turn.  The fact that he didn't notice the raise doesn't seem to be a "gross misunderstanding" situation to me.  (Those are usually about unclear all-in situations or monster bets that are verbalized and no chips placed). 

Spence, I don't think rule #41 forces a player to complete the call in this situation at all.  It is about not arguing over a few chips one way or the other when you make a big call.

I think this situation depicts a misunderstanding of the bet, but the chips would need to stay in the pot and the player should have been given the option to fold.

Bad call from TD on this one I think.

Spence

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Re: Player calls for a substantially incorrect amount
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2011, 09:45:33 PM »
Jasper, That's exactly what I'm saying about accepted action. It seems to conflict with "gross misunderstanding" rather than complement it. I would not want #41 enforced in this situation. I have a tough time with a rule that has to remind everyone of Rule #1 in its own section.
It boils down to a poor call by the TD. The player should have the choice whether or not to call but know that his 1500 is committed no matter what. That he is forced to make the call as accepted action is the mistake that was made.

JasperToo

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Re: Player calls for a substantially incorrect amount
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2011, 08:41:55 AM »
Spence, I am willing to bet that the decision was in no way based on rule 41.  I suspect that it was a standard line rule enforcement.  You know the B.S. rule where if you cross the line with any amount of chips they stand.  So that if it is short of a call, it is automatically a call.  If it is more than you have to raise??   There are many rooms that enforce this sort of thing and without the option to not complete the call and fold. 

I agree #41 would be the wrong rule to be enforcing and I have to agree that there is something likely wrong with a rule that must refer to #1 to avoid arguments.

mooredog

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Re: Player calls for a substantially incorrect amount
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2011, 12:07:29 PM »
One of our dealers while working on the road had this occur and the TD ruled the player had to call the full amount. The TD said it was a TDA rule. I've looked through them and find it nowhere. I would leave the chips in the pot as they went in while in turn, but as long as the player did not verbalize "Call' I'd let him fold while leaving the chips in the pot that he tossed in. Verbalizations take precedence over actions and he didn't verbalize the call. It would be nice to hear from some TD's who have run some big ($10,000 buy ins,  etc) how they would rule on this.

K-Lo

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Re: Player calls for a substantially incorrect amount
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2011, 03:41:46 PM »
I agree with all the posters that would give the player the option to fold, and requiring the chips already committed to the pot to stay in.  I think the Rules are clear in this regard.

I am generally wary of enforcing the gross misunderstanding "exception" in any situation where the bet/raise is in plain view.  It is one thing if a player had simply placed chips out in front of him that amounted to a call, and nothing else visually that would suggest that more was being bet, but it turns out that he announced "all-in".  In some of these cases, I am comfortable enforcing the gross misunderstanding exception.  On the other hand, if a player can plainly see an opponent's bet, the player considering a call is solely responsible for not interpreting the bet clearly.  Poker is a visual game.  It's up to him to make sure he assesses a player's bet correctly, whether that involves counting out a humongous stack of chips, or verifying the color of one or two chips.

Here's something that works for me, and I hope I don't offend anybody because I don't mean to.  Whenever I'm faced with a decision at the table where I might be considering whether the "gross misunderstanding" exception should apply, I ask myself: "Would a deaf person have misunderstood the options that he faced based on what he has seen?"  If this notional person looking at an opponent's bet would not have interpreted the bet as all-in, I may allow the exception if it seemed that the player did not hear the "all-in".  If this notional person looking at an opponent's bet and what the opponent is holding behind still wouldn't be able to see those two 100K denomination chips hiding under the all-in opponent's hat or IPod, I might allow the exception.  But if being deaf wouldn't affect the player's ability to accurately assess the amount of a bet moved into the pot, then I will not apply the exception.  I know this all might seem a bit strange, but it works for me when I am pressed to make a quick decision.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 04:18:13 PM by K-Lo »

mooredog

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Re: Player calls for a substantially incorrect amount
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2011, 03:54:55 PM »
I like the example referring to if a deaf person would know what the bet was. We encourage all-ins to shove their stacks forward or throw forward an all-in card/token if you have them. that way noone can say "I didn't hear him" If half the table doesn't hear the declaration and certainly if the dealer didn't hear it I never hold the player to the call.

PaulaN

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Re: Player calls for a substantially incorrect amount
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2011, 03:06:55 AM »
Thank you all for being so helpful. The discussion was very informative, as always.

Stuart Murray

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Re: Player calls for a substantially incorrect amount
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2011, 07:00:11 AM »
The majority of rules out there will allow the player to either call the T6,000 or fold, leaving the T1,500 in, which is how I would of ruled.  Some cardrooms will bind the player to the T6,000 but I don't believe that to be in the best interests of the game.

Regards
Stuart

RobinK

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Re: Player calls for a substantially incorrect amount
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2011, 07:27:32 PM »
 As soon as the player places chips into the pot, it is the same as saying "call". The player is responsible of knowing how much is the bet, or asking the dealer in case he/she is not sure.
 There was no other bet or raise, so it can not be treated as a misunderstanding. I would rule the same as the TD did.
Misunderstanding would be if:

A - bets 1500
B - quietly raises all-in to 9000
c - quietly places 1500 into the pot. If its clear the player was unaware that the pot has been raised, he/she may withdraw the chips and reconsider the action.

 That is how I understand the current TDA rules.

Regards
RK

Nick C

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Re: Player calls for a substantially incorrect amount
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2011, 09:23:48 PM »
PaulaN,
 You have raised an interesting situation that should have clearly been covered by TDA rule: Accepted Action. However, the majority don't agree, and that includes me.
I actually like your response better than most. It was a gross misunderstanding.
 I always liked dealing in games where the players announced their bets and I would repeat the amount to the next player. If there were more than two players in the hand, an incorrect bet would be corrected before substantial action took place. The new rules do not protect players enough. The decision to force a player to put more chips into the pot is not in the best interest of the game.
 RobinK wants to ask the dealer how much the bet is if he is unsure...I like it but, that's not in compliance with any TDA rule that I know of. It also brings up an even worse scenario for a player that is unaware of a bet: Player A bets 400, Player B raises to 4000, Player C says raise and tosses 800 into the pot. Obviously he missed the silent raise. Are you going to hold Player C to his verbal raise and force him to put *8000 into the pot?

*PLEASE NOTE THAT THE AMOUT OF 8000 SHOULD READ 7600 AS DCJ001 NOTED !
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 07:53:56 PM by Nick C »

DCJ001

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Re: Player calls for a substantially incorrect amount
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2011, 10:10:57 PM »
No.

The raise would be to 7600.

mooredog

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Re: Player calls for a substantially incorrect amount
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2011, 03:10:43 PM »
Since we have a dealer that works in 2 places (For us, only the chips thrown in stay and he can fold, but in his other job they rule the player must call the entire amount) I thought I'd seek out the expertise of the big boys and emailed the board of directors. Matt Savage replied that the player had 2 options. They were to either fold and leave only the chips already thrown forward in the pot or to call the larger amount. Fair ruling. End of story.