Author Topic: exposing cards  (Read 6248 times)

Jorge

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exposing cards
« on: October 20, 2011, 08:13:16 AM »
Dear directors:  We' ve had some problems with this rule; 53, Exposings cards.
Any round, a player turns his cards up and doesn't says anything, and does not places chips, too, What's that; fold or call?.
TDA Rules says; " a player who exposes his cards with action pending may incur a penalty, but will not have a dead hand.
I've received this  important opinion; " That is a fold, if you deem this a dead hand, it will stop people from doing it". Suggestion; before the cards are in the air, the TD anounces that when facing a bet, esposing cards kills your hand.
Right now, our rules states about this bet; It's a call.
I will really apreciate your opinions to help me and clear to me up.

Jorge

Stuart Murray

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Re: exposing cards
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2011, 08:33:39 AM »
Hi Jorge,

Killing a live hand is not in the best interests of a tournament, the objective of any tournament is to go from total entries to 1 player within a set timescale, to kill a hand, goes against this basic objective, the player who exposes his cards has a disadvantage against the other player also, as he has given that information away for free. The TDA policy is to complete the hand then punish, for example two players make an agreement to check down an all-in player, with is highly unethical, you would allow the hand to complete them disqualify or severely penalise the players once the hand is complete.

In your scenario, if it was at my tables, the player intentionally exposes their cards with malice and the player won the hand, I would penalise them with an orbit amount that penalises them for more than they won in the hand, if they loose the hand it would likely be one round, if they exposes their cards unintentionally or without malice then the penalty would be lighter, likely 1 hand - 1 orbit.

The most important factor you must adopt however is the TDA principle that killing a hand which is live is not in the best interests of tournament play.  I do know there are several rulesets which are not in keeping with this, which are fair to be said, behind the times.  I only ever generally announce hands that have already been killed by the dealer or those with improper starting hands etc, I can't remember the last time I ever killed a hand which was proper and in custody of the player.  Announcing at the start of the Tournament that a player will have a dead hand is not compaticle with the TDA.  Also stating that a player who exposes their hand can only call is not workable either, they should have all options available (check, call, raise, fold) as again binding that player to passive action is not in the best interests of tournament play.

Regards
Stuart
« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 08:37:40 AM by Stuart Murray »

Nick C

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Re: exposing cards
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2011, 09:25:41 AM »
Stuart,
 Every situation could be different from the next, but I am against any player that shows their cards with multiple players, and/or action pending. Any exposed card gives too much information to be given a "slap on the wrist." As you mentioned the intent has a lot to do with it but then we begin dealing with whether it was intentional, or not. Players can never show their cards with action pending...Never. Head to head is a different situation because there is no collusion possible. To say that the player that exposes their hand is at a disadvantage is not how I see it.

Baccarat

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Re: exposing cards
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2011, 04:12:04 PM »
Nick, Stuart please, I am a little confused. If a player maliciosly expose his cards, then:

a) we kill his hand, or
b) we consider his bet just a call and at the end of the hand we penalize him, or
c) we give him all the options (call, raise, fols, etc) and then we SEVERALLY penalize him at the end of the hand .

So, If a player expose his cards unintencionally or without malice, then:
a) we kill his hand, or
b) we considered his bet just a call and at the end of the hand we LIGHTLY penalize him, or
c) we gave him all the options and at the end of the hand we LIGHTLY penalize him.

Thank You,


Stuart Murray

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Re: exposing cards
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2011, 04:35:49 PM »
Hi Baccarat,

Intentional Exposure:
All options, penalty at end of hand

Unintentional Exposure
All options, penalty at end of hand

We cannot, and must not kill a live & proper hand in play, no matter how extreme the situation, nor would it be a fit and proper ruling to 'bind' said player to 'passive' action (call, check fold only) that is the best interests of the tournament.

Regards
Stuart
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 04:37:05 PM by Stuart Murray »

chet

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Re: exposing cards
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2011, 06:11:31 PM »
I would like to add to Stuart's response, in regard to the player who intentionally exposes his hand.  

Granted under the exposed hand rule, the hand is NOT DEAD and a subsequent penalty would be the resolution.  HOWEVER, I would seriously consider other TDA Rules when deciding what to do in this instance.  For example, you could consider invoking TDA Rule 52, 54 and/or 55.  If this players action was serious enough, you could disqualify him from the tournament.

Chet
« Last Edit: October 22, 2011, 09:07:36 AM by chet »

Nick C

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Re: exposing cards
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2011, 08:39:32 PM »
I'm with Chet on this one. Players that intentionally expose their cards should not have raise options open to them. Repeat offenders should be escorted out of the poker room.

Pepper_W

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Re: exposing cards
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2011, 08:39:13 AM »
I totally agree with disqualifying repeat offenders.  However, in reading the responses to this I have one question that came to mind. 

In situations that involve chip dumping, one school of thought is to remove the chips in the pot from play and penalize the offenders. 

I'd like to see what the general opinions are with regard to removing the chips from play if a player exposes their cards deliberately and then wins the pot.   Personally, I wouldn't try to remove the chips if the non-offending player wins.  They are simply taking advantage of the opportunity the offending player gives them, we do that all the time.  If the offending player wins the pot it seems reasonable to not only remove the reward of additional chips, but also incorporate a penalty and remove the chips originally entered into the pot.

This came to mind as I read the responses and I thought I'd throw it out there and see what the opinions are. 

Thanks

Nick C

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Re: exposing cards
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2011, 12:05:20 PM »
Pepper_W
 There is a proper time to show your cards in poker... at the showdown. I don't understand how a player, that shows his hand with action pending could win. Who's going to call a player that shows a better hand. Players cannot show their cards to anyone, it violates too many rules of poker to even count. Head to head, is a different story.

Spence

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Re: exposing cards
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2011, 12:12:57 AM »
Nick I really hate to argue with you and I think we've gone through this before but
There is a proper time to show your cards in poker... at the showdown. I don't understand how a player, that shows his hand with action pending could win. Who's going to call a player that shows a better hand. Players cannot show their cards to anyone, it violates too many rules of poker to even count. Head to head, is a different story.
Why?

Nick C

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Re: exposing cards
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2011, 06:53:18 AM »
 Whith only two players it eliminates collusion. There are no other players to protect.

Spence

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Re: exposing cards
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2011, 04:15:21 PM »
OK. I'm happy enough with that.
I'm just used to using above border rules where we hold strong restrictions for angling. I am no longer in that mindset. I wish we had more vegas style poker North of the 49th.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 04:17:24 PM by Spence »

WSOPMcGee

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Re: exposing cards
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2011, 05:49:23 PM »
Whith only two players it eliminates collusion. There are no other players to protect.

Interesting. So you do agree that are other players to protect at showdown during the tournament when more than two players are left. But yet, you don't want all players to turn over their hand when a player is all-in. I find this interesting.  ;)
@wsopmcgee on Twitter

Nick C

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Re: exposing cards
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2011, 07:22:23 PM »
Thomas,
 I never said I didn't want all players to turn their cards over when a player is all-in. What I said was, they have a specific order of showdown which is for the all-in to show their hand last because they are not contesting the side pot.