EPT special rules

[Guillaume Gleize]

Hello,

Here are some EPT rules that I think might be different from the TDA general rules ... if no error from me.
Your opinion about it:

1- Flop: player A bet 1000 ... player B goes all-in at 1900 ... player C says "raise" and can minraise at 2000 ... !

2- Flop: player A bet 1000 ... player B is skipped ... player C raises out of turn at 3000 ... action is stopped and floor comes ... player B decide to call ... player C is obliged to call too ... !

3- Preflop heads-up: player A (SB & button) is skipped ... player B (BB) raise out of turn ... action is stopped and floor comes ... player A can accept the action of B and has 3 options ... ! ... or refuse it and choose to play first one of the 3 options but if he calls the BB, he obliges player B to stick to a check ... !!

4- If a player is not sitting while the very first card is dealt (to the UTG): his hand is immediatly dead ... !

5- In case of all the players checking at the river: the first to show his hand is the last player who bet or raised in the full hand (even preflop) ... !

6- If a card is flipped face up during the deal after touching a player's hand and event if it's obvious that the player really didn't moved at all and that the fault is on the dealer side: the player must keep his card and play with it. Card flipped or flashed while touched by the players (event accidentaly) must all be kept ... !

7- The warnings do not go automatically with a one hand penalty ... !

8- A player leaving the table or folding out of turn without chips involved in the pot (other than the ante) receive a 2 hands penalty ... !

9- A player leaving the table or folding out of turn with chips involved in the pot (other than the ante) receive a one round penalty ... !

10- The new hand begins exactly at the riffle wich follow the shuffle of the cards ... this is ok with TDA right?

11- A player leaving the table during the deal has his hand immediatly killed and receive a two hands penalty ... !

12- The players in late registering have their stack blinded off all the anteriors blinds in blocks of 20' 25' or 30' depending of the tournament ... !

13- The electronic devices must even not touch the table ... !

14- Full ring table ... 2 seats in middle position are free ... the other 8 seats occupied ... the actual BB is eliminated ... so 3 seats are free ... a player arrives to balance the tables ... he is placed at the ex-BB seat and will be the new BB ... so the BB do not change of seat ... the Button is directly on his right (ex-SB) ... there is no SB ... during the next hand the BB will advance, the newly arrived player will now be SB and the button will still stay at the same player (the original SB) ... ok with TDA?

15- During the deal the BB player receive only one card (or any other wrong deal) ... all the rest of the table bet and call and so on (huge substancial action) ... misdeal anyway ... (I didn't catch if they only do that to protect the BB player or for any player) ... !

16- When only 2 players left in a hand: a player who had been raised can ask the dealer to match the amounts and count for him the difference needed to call ... !

17- Foreign language is accepted between the hands ... !

18- In the tournaments with ante: during the final heads-up the ante are removed ... !

   

Please don't take it in the wrong way but: about all the answers that may AGREE with any of thoses 18 EPT rules, I will wait for a "certain number" of thoses opinions before even thinking about changing my own rules & habits based on the TDA!

[Nick C]

Guillaume Gleize,
You have quite a list here. I will touch on a few. #1 TDA rules for No-Limit would not allow a player to complete the bet to 2000...the minimum raise would be a total of 2900 (1900+1000 raise). So the answer to #1 is NO.
1- Flop: player A bet 1000 ... player B goes all-in at 1900 ... player C says "raise" and can minraise at 2000 ... !

#2 After Player C bets the dealer should stop the action and back-up the bet to the skipped player. If B calls every option should be open to player C as long as Player D did not respond (substantial action).

 #3 is a little tricky. If I were player A (SB), I would be forewarned that a raise was coming. If the SB decided to act I would make the out of turn liable for at least his stated amount. In other words; if the SB decided to raise Example: BB raises to 3000 (out of turn) the action is stopped and the SB decides to raise 10000 I would give three options to the out of turn BB. Call the 10000, raise, or fold and surrender your 3000. I know others will not agree but that's the call I would make.

 #4 might require a little common sense, if the player is close enough to hear his name, or clearly on his way back to his seat I might give him a couple seconds before I kill his hand.


#5 Is another house rule. Most casinos and the TDA ask that the last aggressor on the last betting round, not the last bettor from an early round from the same hand.

 #6 The card will be replaced unless the player looked at it and dropped it.

 #'s 7, 8, and 9, I don't know.

 #10 Yes the new deal begins with the first riffle of the deck or when an automatic shuffler is used the green light indicates the new hand.

 #'s 11, 12 and 13, I don't know that the penalties are that fixed.

 #14 has me a little confused. I'm going to stop here and see what others have to say.

[chet]

Nick:  I have some thoughts on several of your responses:

#4 - At one time, it was explained to me that "At your Seat" meant the player was within arms reach of the chair.  I can argue that "close enough to hear his name, or clearly on his way back to his seat" could include a player half way across the room.  Personally, I prefer the "arms reach of the chair" requirement/definition.

#5 - TDA Rule 12 is very specific as to the Showdown Order.  ONLY if there was action on the last betting round does the last aggressor show first.  If there was no action on the last betting round (assuming we are talking hold'em here) then it goes in order starting with the 1st player to the left of the button.

#10 - I agree that it is the 1st riffle in hand shuffled games, but if there is a shuffler then it is when the green BUTTON is pressed, not when the green light comes on that determines when the next hand starts.  TDA Rule 20.

#'s 11, 12 & 13 - TDA Rules DO NOT specify any particular penalty for a given infraction.  The amount of the penalty is totally within the discretion of the TD.

#14 - Too confusing for me too!!

Thoughts on items you did not comment on:

#15 -  As long as the BB player notifies the dealer that he has only one card WHEN IT IS HIS TURN TO ACT, and PRIOR to the pre-flop burn, I don't think that substantial action applies.  He should be given the top card off the deck (which is the card he should have anyway) and play should continue.  I don't see the justification for a misdeal, UNLESS it was the first down card that was missed.  If it was the first card and substantial action has occurred, then I would be inclined to rule the BB hand dead and let play continue.  Each player is responsible for ensuring their hand has the correct number of cards. 

#17 - I don't see a problem or conflict with TDA Rule 2.  TDA Rule 2 says, "...during the play of hands."  I don't think the TDA has addressed language usage between hands.

#18 - This has to do with structure and the TDA (to my knowledge) has not specified anything with regard to event structure.

chet

[Nick C]

Chet,

 #4 I can agree with arms reach, that's okay. I've also heard within earshot, which I always thought was to vague.

  #5 I also agree with the first player clockwise to the dealer button showing first. I guess I was trying to point out that the TDA does not go back to a prior betting round after a check by all players at the river.

 # Good one with the automated shuffler...I don't use them.

 #15 This one I think you got a little mixed-up. If the BB has only one card, he does not get the top card off the deck. That only goes to the button if he is skipped.

 # I agree that any language can be spoken between hands.

 Chet, I'm glad you responded. I haven't heard from the BOD in a long time.

[chet]

Nick:

You are 100% correct about #15.  I got mixed up with the Button quite often only having one card.  On review, I see no good way out of this mess.  I go back to that part of my original response that finds the BB hand dead UNLESS it can be determined with 100% certainty that it was the 1st card that was missed, in which case I would be inclined to go with a misdeal, although I might be easily convinced that given the action already taken place that the hand should be played out with the BB being declared dead.

Finally, you give me WAAAYYY too much credit.  I am not and never have been a member of the TDA BOD, in fact, I don't even think I am remotely qualified for same.  This assumes that is what you meant by the last sentence regarding not having heard from the BOD in a long time.

Chet

[Nick C]

Chet and Guillaume,

 Regarding question #15 of this post: There are only two possibilities for the BB having only one card after the deal; a.) the second card dealt went to the improper position (UTG) or- b.) The BB was skipped his second down card.

 a.) Calls for an automatic misdeal. Misdeals-Dealing too few cards to a player, except when that player is due to get the top card of the deck, e. g.,(the button in flop games).

 b.) The BB's final down card was dealt to the UTG position.

Because players have a responsibility to "protect their own hand," if substantial action follows before the error is recognized, the BB's hand is dead.
If the error is noticed before substantial action occurs, it is a misdeal. Players can complain but, none of the players will have their "proper card."

Years ago, if a player was skipped we used to take the second card from the bottom of the deck and give it to the skipped player. This was done before action took place and was used in low limit games. The justification was called "randomization" where any unknown card gives the player the same chance at winning as any other card. I'm not saying I agree, I'm just giving you some options.

[Guillaume Gleize]

Thanks for your efforts.

I was so surprised by all thoses differences (#1 is incredible) as floor manager there ... knowing that I allready had to work my english and all thoses charming european accents (Irish accent is lovely but so rude to catch)! But I must add that this EPT staff is a great team including very efficient and charismatic managers & dealers!

 

[Nick C]

Guillaume,
 It sounds like whatever rules you are using are working for you. If you look back on this forum you will see that the most confusing of all rules pertain to raising. My advice to you is keep it simple. I have been in poker for a long time and I think "raises" is the most complex part of the game. The limit raise rules are very easy to understand. e.g., In a $10 and $20 stud game if a player bets $10 and the next player goes all-in for $14 it is not considered a raise because it is less than half of the required full raise...so the options to the next player are: fold, call the $14, or complete the raise to $20 (notice: they CAN NOT make it $24).

 The same situation; Player A bets $10, the all-in puts $15 (50% of the required full raise). The options to the next player are: fold, call the $15, or raise to $25 because the $5 increase is considered a bet and it is also counted as a raise for the number of raises allowed.

I would prefer the halh the bet rule, even for limit but that is not going to happen any time soon.

[WSOPMcGee]

Hello,

Here are some EPT rules that I think might be different from the TDA general rules ... if no error from me.
Your opinion about it:

Going to answer these questions one by one as TDA defined. But first, I want to reiterate TDA rules are only supplemental rules and there are many, many tournaments across the world that "CLAIM" they follow TDA rules, but the truth is that they do not. They use TDA rules to supplement their own rules. For instance, the World Poker Tour, which Matt is executive director of, has events where TDA rules aren't even used.

1- Flop: player A bet 1000 ... player B goes all-in at 1900 ... player C says "raise" and can minraise at 2000 ... !

This used to be the standard. The reasoning is, 1900 is only 900 more than 1000 and therefore is not a full raise. Because it was not a full raise, technically, the 900 more did not factor into the betting as a raise. Thus, the 1900 was treated as if it didn't exist and the minimum raise remained the same (1000 raised to 2000). Sounds more complicated than it needs to be, but TDA has since reversed its stance and now the 1900 bet is included in the betting as a raise.

2- Flop: player A bet 1000 ... player B is skipped ... player C raises out of turn at 3000 ... action is stopped and floor comes ... player B decide to call ... player C is obliged to call too ... !

Confused by the phrase "Obliged to call". Do you mean he is obligated (required) to call 1000? Or do you mean he obligated (required) to make it 3000? TDA states the player C is obligated to make the same action they made out of turn if action has not changed, which in this case it has not. So player C must make it 3000. TDA #35. To have Player C's action restricted to only calling is odd.

3- Preflop heads-up: player A (SB & button) is skipped ... player B (BB) raise out of turn ... action is stopped and floor comes ... player A can accept the action of B and has 3 options ... ! ... or refuse it and choose to play first one of the 3 options but if he calls the BB, he obliges player B to stick to a check ... !!

Same answer as above. TDA #35. At least you can say in both instances #2 and #3 that the rulings are consistent. Wrong  . But consistent.

4- If a player is not sitting while the very first card is dealt (to the UTG): his hand is immediatly dead ... !

Very strict. But I got no problem with it. Eliminates the guy talking to his neighbor at another table waiting for the dealer to deal the last card before trying to return to his seat.

5- In case of all the players checking at the river: the first to show his hand is the last player who bet or raised in the full hand (even preflop) ... !

Pretty standard in Europe. Last aggressive action shows first no matter what betting round the aggressive action took place. No problem with this either as long as it's consistent. But prefer TDA rule. Much easier to enforce.

6- If a card is flipped face up during the deal after touching a player's hand and even if it's obvious that the player really didn't moved at all and that the fault is on the dealer side: the player must keep his card and play with it. Card flipped or flashed while touched by the players (even accidentaly) must all be kept ... !

Again, no problem if consistent. However, now you have players playing hands with exposed cards with action pending. That's a problem. I understand that they want players to receive proper cards and not be allowed to alter their proper cards by accidentally exposing a card. But seems like a greater disadvantage to make someone play with an exposed hand. Don't see the logic in that.

7- The warnings do not go automatically with a one hand penalty ... !

8- A player leaving the table or folding out of turn without chips involved in the pot (other than the ante) receive a 2 hands penalty ... !

9- A player leaving the table or folding out of turn with chips involved in the pot (other than the ante) receive a one round penalty ... !

Ruling regarding penalties are totally at the discretion of the TD. Leaving the table OOT with action pending is obviously an etiquette violation.

Part 1 of 2.

[WSOPMcGee]

10- The new hand begins exactly at the riffle wich follow the shuffle of the cards ... this is ok with TDA right?

ALL GOOD.

11- A player leaving the table during the deal has his hand immediatly killed and receive a two hands penalty ... !

Same answer as #7, #8, #9.

12- The players in late registering have their stack blinded off all the anteriors blinds in blocks of 20' 25' or 30' depending of the tournament ... !

What I think I'm reading is that they have their stack blinded off according to the amount of time that has past in the tournament. Again, no problem if consistent AND posted in the rules.
Some tournaments blind off the each stack from the beginning of the tournament and deal each stack in. Some tournaments blind off each stack according to time. Some tournaments give full stacks no matter what.

13- The electronic devices must even not touch the table ... !

Amen. I don't like foreign objects on the table. I want Chips and Cards. That's it. Ok card protectors too. Big no G.I. Joe dolls!!

14- Full ring table ... 2 seats in middle position are free ... the other 8 seats occupied ... the actual BB is eliminated ... so 3 seats are free ... a player arrives to balance the tables ... he is placed at the ex-BB seat and will be the new BB ... so the BB do not change of seat ... the Button is directly on his right (ex-SB) ... there is no SB ... during the next hand the BB will advance, the newly arrived player will now be SB and the button will still stay at the same player (the original SB) ... ok with TDA?

This is TDA #8

15- During the deal the BB player receive only one card (or any other wrong deal) ... all the rest of the table bet and call and so on (huge substancial action) ... misdeal anyway ... (I didn't catch if they only do that to protect the BB player or for any player) ... !

This one is a bit tricky. You can and will get different answers. Some people want the blinds to ALWAYS receive their proper cards and will declare a misdeal. Some people will only declare a misdeal if there is no substantial action. Some people, as suggested by chet, may give the BB the top card off the deck to give the BB a complete hand. In this case, you have both, improper cards and substantial action. The action should stand and the hand played IMO. I'd also be inclined to give the BB the top card to give them a complete hand unless another players hand happened to have 3 cards or their are an odd number of mucked cards, or other circumstance the would indicate that the other players have proper cards vs improper cards.

16- When only 2 players left in a hand: a player who had been raised can ask the dealer to match the amounts and count for him the difference needed to call ... !

Not sure I understand the objection. Are you objecting to the matching of the stacks? Or objecting to the asking for amount needed to call? The "matching of stacks" is improper dealing procedure. Stacks should be counted.
But I'm not really sure if that's what you mean. 

17- Foreign language is accepted between the hands ... !

In an international environment, I find it almost insulting to tell players that they can't speak their own language at the table. Especially at events like the WSOP where players come from all over the world. As long as there's no hand in play I have no problem.

Different tournaments cater to different players. The differences in events give players choices, to play or not play. I like choices.

Also note that I believe the EPT is now run and organized under 3 different TD's and crews.

Part 2 of 2.

[Nick C]

Hello Thomas,

 I want to ask you if my answer to this question is wrong:

Quote

1- Flop: player A bet 1000 ... player B goes all-in at 1900 ... player C says "raise" and can minraise at 2000 ... !
This used to be the standard. The reasoning is, 1900 is only 900 more than 1000 and therefore is not a full raise. Because it was not a full raise, technically, the 900 more did not factor into the betting as a raise. Thus, the 1900 was treated as if it didn't exist and the minimum raise remained the same (1000 raised to 2000). Sounds more complicated than it needs to be, but TDA has since reversed its stance and now the 1900 bet is included in the betting as a raise.

Are you saying that the TDA is now allowing the short raise in a no limit as if it were a limit? I'm confused on your answer. When did the TDA reverse their ruling?

[Nick C]

Quote From Thomas McGee

15- During the deal the BB player receive only one card (or any other wrong deal) ... all the rest of the table bet and call and so on (huge substancial action) ... misdeal anyway ... (I didn't catch if they only do that to protect the BB player or for any player) ... !
 This one is a bit tricky. You can and will get different answers. Some people want the blinds to ALWAYS receive their proper cards and will declare a misdeal. Some people will only declare a misdeal if there is no substantial action. Some people, as suggested by chet, may give the BB the top card off the deck to give the BB a complete hand. In this case, you have both, improper cards and substantial action. The action should stand and the hand played IMO. I'd also be inclined to give the BB the top card to give them a complete hand unless another players hand happened to have 3 cards or their are an odd number of mucked cards, or other circumstance the would indicate that the other players have proper cards vs improper cards.

Thomas,
 I strongly disagree with the above answer. There is no way that the BB gets a card after substantial action. There will be no misdeal either. Players have a responsibility to protect their own hand. The BB should have said something before any action took place. The only player that is allowed a card, if skipped after the initial deal and even after substantial action is the button. The button would be getting his "proper card." Sorry, the BB has a dead hand and action continues.

[WSOPMcGee]

Hello Thomas,

 I want to ask you if my answer to this question is wrong:

Quote

1- Flop: player A bet 1000 ... player B goes all-in at 1900 ... player C says "raise" and can minraise at 2000 ... !
This used to be the standard. The reasoning is, 1900 is only 900 more than 1000 and therefore is not a full raise. Because it was not a full raise, technically, the 900 more did not factor into the betting as a raise. Thus, the 1900 was treated as if it didn't exist and the minimum raise remained the same (1000 raised to 2000). Sounds more complicated than it needs to be, but TDA has since reversed its stance and now the 1900 bet is included in the betting as a raise.

Are you saying that the TDA is now allowing the short raise in a no limit as if it were a limit? I'm confused on your answer. When did the TDA reverse their ruling?

Not sure I understand your question Nick. Limit raising rules are not part of this discussion. We're talking No limit raising rules which used to be governed by no bet is a raise unless it's a full raise which meant that any bet that was less than a full raise was treated as if it didn't exist.

Old rule example: 500-1000 blinds, player A goes all-in for 1900. Player B could min raise to 2000 because 900 is not a full raise.
New rule example: 500-1000 blinds, player A goes all-in for 1900. To min raise, Player B must make it 2900, 1000 more or a full bet more.

When did this change exactly? Maybe Mike B or Mr. Lamb has a better answer, but within the last 5 yrs did the "New Rule" become the norm.

[WSOPMcGee]

Quote From Thomas McGee

15- During the deal the BB player receive only one card (or any other wrong deal) ... all the rest of the table bet and call and so on (huge substancial action) ... misdeal anyway ... (I didn't catch if they only do that to protect the BB player or for any player) ... !
 This one is a bit tricky. You can and will get different answers. Some people want the blinds to ALWAYS receive their proper cards and will declare a misdeal. Some people will only declare a misdeal if there is no substantial action. Some people, as suggested by chet, may give the BB the top card off the deck to give the BB a complete hand. In this case, you have both, improper cards and substantial action. The action should stand and the hand played IMO. I'd also be inclined to give the BB the top card to give them a complete hand unless another players hand happened to have 3 cards or their are an odd number of mucked cards, or other circumstance the would indicate that the other players have proper cards vs improper cards.

Thomas,
 I strongly disagree with the above answer. There is no way that the BB gets a card after substantial action. There will be no misdeal either. Players have a responsibility to protect their own hand. The BB should have said something before any action took place. The only player that is allowed a card, if skipped after the initial deal and even after substantial action is the button. The button would be getting his "proper card." Sorry, the BB has a dead hand and action continues.

In the above scenario, no hand has their "proper card". None. So why are you against the BB receiving a complete hand, thus protecting the integrity of the board? If you do not give the BB a card to complete their hand, than the dealer will have dealt out 17 cards vs 18 cards, making the entire deal, including the flop, turn and river, all improper cards. If that's your stance, then I respectfully would disagree with you.

[Nick C]

Thomas,
 The reason is substantial action has taken place. It is no different than continuing action in a hand when it is discovered that a player, "playing in the dark," realizes that he has only one card or too many cards. His hand is dead, and play continues. There are many situations, after a dealer mistake, that allow play to continue even though the probability of the "proper board cards" is unlikely.

 Your reply to my other question was very interesting. I have only been a member of the TDA for two years. It was enlightening to read that five years ago, the raise rules for no-limit were based on the all-in player not having 100% (full min raise) to re-open the betting. I like that way better. The old way was simple, if the all-in did not have enough to complete a full raise, that option was open to the next bettor...simple! The short raise had to be "called" by any player competing for the pot but, any player after the all-in could raise again! Why did they ever change that!!!