Author Topic: All-in not called  (Read 5087 times)

secretboy

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All-in not called
« on: October 21, 2011, 04:53:00 AM »
I found myself in a situation this week with two players. Player 1 raised 1100 after the river. Player 2 threw a bounty chip (which means all-in) and matched the 1100 on the table. Player 1 exposed his cards thinking it was time for the showdown thinking it was only a call. player 1 had a straight. Player 2 showed her cards thinking he had called she had 2 pair. This was a tough ruling on my part. I was not sure what to do here. Player 1 was going to call the all if he had seen it. What I did, was I awarded the pot to player 1, but since he did not call the all-in he only got the 1100 and the pot. Player 2 was allowed to keep her all-in chips. Was this The right thing to do? Can I get some advive here to better handle this situation.

W0lfster

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Re: All-in not called
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2011, 05:51:38 AM »
I think this could be interpreted very differently, it would be interesting to here the upcoming comments on this question. First of all I take it this is no limit, secondly I don't quite understand how player 1 needs to put anymore chips in when you stated that player 2 had matched player 1's bet/raise of 1100. If you mean player 2 had matched player 1's 1100 bet/raise and had raised all in more than that then IMO the fact that player 1 showed his/her cards means he/she plays with an exposed hand but not dead. Player 1's option are still open to him/her: call the all in or fold or raise if there is more than 2 players in the hand but heads up just call or fold. After that it is cards speak and if player 1 has the best hand then he/she is still entitled to the pot IMO. This is a very vague question and I appreciate this is your first on the forum so Welcome aboard!.

JasperToo

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Re: All-in not called
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2011, 07:51:57 AM »
I believe you made the right call.  The fact that player one exposed his cards is a mistake on his part and could/should result in a penalty.  But now action is not over, player 2 also made a mistake by turning their hand over.  Player 2 should have made sure that player 1 called the all in, she should have asked if player 1 was calling the all in when he tabled his hand.  In this case it worked out well for player 2 since they had the losing hand, but if he had had the winning hand he would have lost the calling chips just as player 1 lost the all-in chips.

I like the decision.  I think it was correct.

Brian Vickers

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Re: All-in not called
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2011, 03:09:22 PM »
Step 1: Abolish the rule that putting a bounty chip across the line means "all in". 
Result: No confusion.

Stuart Murray

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Re: All-in not called
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2011, 03:38:04 PM »
Hi Secret,

I also have no problems with your ruling.  I think it was fair enough, and in the best interests of the tournament, I would however echo Brians post re using all-in chips, they were a flash in the pan item and have been generally buried as a bad idea, as they do indeed create more problems than they solve.  The use of a dealers all-in button is reasonable in busy, noisy cardrooms, and it is the dealer that places the all-in button in front of the player.

I have saw posts previously where all-in chips rolled off stacks etc by accident and across the betting line, they are to me nothing more than a complication.

Regards
Stuart

JasperToo

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Re: All-in not called
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2011, 07:31:03 AM »
... I would however echo Brians post re using all-in chips, they were a flash in the pan item and have been generally buried as a bad idea, as they do indeed create more problems than they solve.  The use of a dealers all-in button is reasonable in busy, noisy cardrooms, and it is the dealer that places the all-in button in front of the player.

I would agree with the distinction between an all-in button that is controlled by the dealer vs the use of the bounty chip or seat card as a player controlled all-in button.  At the summit this year the entire board was in agreement that the use of, as Jan Fischer put it "not just a little button but a huge yellow button" that the dealer controls is definitely something that should be used.  And I know that they have solved many of the problems that used to occur in our tournaments.

Spence

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Re: All-in not called
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2011, 09:14:30 PM »
I'm a little torn here... What if we take the all-in button out of the equation. If player 2 had stated "all-in" and player 1 opens does that change any ruling. Normally under those circumstances when player 1 opens it is either a call or fold. If 1 had called the all-in and yes we do know that 2 did want to commit all the chips then shouldn't 1 be entitled to everything? In some circumstances it may be difficult to tell what the players intentions were but in this one it seems pretty clear that 1 would be calling with what I believe is the nuts. W0lfster may have said it best with
If you mean player 2 had matched player 1's 1100 bet/raise and had raised all in more than that then IMO the fact that player 1 showed his/her cards means he/she plays with an exposed hand but not dead. Player 1's option are still open to him/her: call the all in or fold or raise if there is more than 2 players in the hand but heads up just call or fold.

JasperToo

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Re: All-in not called
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2011, 05:29:04 PM »
Yikes, my comments didn't post previously when I was quoting Stuart.....

I was going to point out that at the summit, the BOD was all for the use of all-in buttons.  Jan particularly likes them and says that we should be using big bright yellow all in buttons.  However, I believe that the control of the buttons should be with the dealer and when a player announces all-in that the dealer should reiterate the declaration and toss out the big yellow all in button while doing so.

Nick C

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Re: All-in not called
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2011, 07:06:17 PM »
The all-in button sounded like a good idea when I heard it mentioned at the Summit. Now we need someone to draw up a set of rules for the way it should be used. Who controls the button? What happens if the button is used and the player still has chips? Is it really necessary?