Author Topic: Please Help Clarify TDA Rule #11  (Read 17611 times)

suffolkraider

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Re: Please Help Clarify TDA Rule #11
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2011, 06:32:36 AM »
Not sure if our solution is right if we have A as all in B and C call the main pot is then pushed towards A as "all he can win" then B an C continue with any further bets on separate part of table as side pot  till the river when all action finished all turn cards and pots are awarded as per winning hands. This is how we have done it since I can remember that way all in the action know which pot is which, mind you if we get a second all in multi way then we usually call TD to watch

Nick C

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Re: Please Help Clarify TDA Rule #11
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2011, 07:24:08 AM »
Suffolkraider,

 TDA rule #11 has been debated for quite some time. Your situation is more about formulating the main pot and separating it from other pots. I teach my student dealers to consider the main pot as pot "A." Pot A will be the pot that is contested by the all-in player with the least amount of chips in the pot. Continued betting will begin pot "B." There could be many more pots if multiple players go all-in. It could be Pot A, B, C...etc. I was never in favor of moving the position of the pot because there are too many times when it will not work out. There is confusion (if you ask me) as to the order of showdown. TDA does not really explain the proper order of showdown when a player or players are all-in.
  
    I will copy the following from Robert's Rules of Poker:
 If there is a side pot, the winner of that pot should be decided before the main pot is awarded. If there are multiple side pots, they are decided and awarded by having the pot with the players starting the deal with the greatest number of chips settled first, and so forth.

  I would suggest that this is what the TDA is addressing when they say: The dealer & players should insist on a timely compliance with this rule. If all players turn their hands over at the same time, too much confusion can occur and pot winners are much more difficult to determine.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 04:05:02 AM by Nick C »

Spence

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Re: Please Help Clarify TDA Rule #11
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2011, 09:32:29 PM »
I don't understand how we can enforce both B and C showing on a checked down river when if there was a bet then either could fold and not have to show. If checked down on the river, use either the last agressor rule or first from the button rule (whichever is your house way) to decide on who should open. Not force both players to show.
As Linker said:
-2) showing losing hand could affect the strategy of the player who could have nothing and doesn't want to show his bluff (let's think at B who bets the turn and then check the river) and we always have to protect players for the best interest of the game.

Nick C

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Re: Please Help Clarify TDA Rule #11
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2011, 04:17:42 AM »
Spence,
 You are correct. The rule is not written for players that check. IMO, it is for all-in situations when players have no option because opposing players are out of chips. The way I see it, when any player goes all-in, that does not require other players (with chips) that check to show their cards.

I agree with Linker_Split and Spence on this one.

W0lfster

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Re: Please Help Clarify TDA Rule #11
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2011, 02:48:40 AM »
Sorry people, I am a bit confused, why does the absent player get his/her hand dead when they decided to put their tournament on the line? Maybe the player needed the bathroom and players B and C took ages to make decisions on the turn and river. Theres also the scenario that Player A needed to take a phone call and had to leave the table. IMO, I dont think its as clear cut to kill an absent player's hand but I could be wrong. The only time I would kill the hand is if the player had not committed chips fullstop and was not at the table with action pending.

This is how I see it:

A goes all in on flop B and C call (main pot and side pot created)

B bets C calls (chips added to side pot)

B goes all in and C calls (chips added to side pot)

Showdown - B and C show cards first - winner take side pot which is player B lets say

Absent player A beats player B and takes down the main pot.


I say this because I think its unfair to kill an absent player when he/she had to leave for no fault of their own and have committed chips to the pot. IMO, once you pay, you are entitled to win.

I agree with Nick that I dont like Dealers turning up an absent player's hole cards at showndown but if thats the case, I would rather that than a player turning the cards up.

W0lfster

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Re: Please Help Clarify TDA Rule #11
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2011, 05:30:23 AM »
My mistake A goes all in on flop B and C call (main pot created) no side spot.

WSOPMcGee

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Re: Please Help Clarify TDA Rule #11
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2011, 06:01:00 AM »
If you guys are telling me that RULE #11 have been discussed taking in consideration all I said, then it's fine.
Since I don't think discussion went towards these questions, I can assure that rule #11 is important, but must be modelled for various scenarios
 

Hello Linker,

Your response is valid and no we are not going to arrest anyone. One thing that is lacking in this thread is the purpose for making everyone turn over their hands at the river even when everyone check and even when there is a side pot between other players who are not all-in.

The debate has raged on this forum and at the TDA summit and yes we have considered and discussed all scenarios.

The bottom line is this: Every player in the hand at showdown must turn their hand face up to protect the other players who are in the tournament. Whether the all-in player wins the hand or gets knocked out, not only affects the table and the players in the hand, it also affects the players left in the tournament.

Important things to consider: 1) A player at showdown may misread their hand and muck the winning hand enabling the all-in player to remain in the tournament. 2) Player A may be trying to chip dump to Player B. There other minor reasons but those are the most important.

Hope that helps.
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Nick C

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Re: Please Help Clarify TDA Rule #11
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2011, 07:32:10 AM »
Thomas,
 I raised this question on another thread, 'do all tournament players have to table their cards at the showdown, or only when there is an all-in'? Your explanation; to protect all tournament players is why all cards should be tabled whenever there is an all-in player.
       Is that correct?
So, whenever there is an all-in, there can be no mistakes as to who has the best hand. There can be no folding of a winning hand by mistake and every player involved at the showdown has the guarantee that they will see every players hand...is that correct? If so, why?

 I'd like to start a debate on this subject because I never got the answer I wanted.  Are there different showdown procedures, from regular showdown and when any player is all-in?

WSOPMcGee

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Re: Please Help Clarify TDA Rule #11
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2011, 05:29:42 PM »
Thomas,
 I raised this question on another thread, 'do all tournament players have to table their cards at the showdown, or only when there is an all-in'? Your explanation; to protect all tournament players is why all cards should be tabled whenever there is an all-in player.
       Is that correct?
Yes, to protect all tournament players. Same reason we don't want players talking about the contents of their hand or showing cards with action pending.
Quote
So, whenever there is an all-in, there can be no mistakes as to who has the best hand. There can be no folding of a winning hand by mistake and every player involved at the showdown has the guarantee that they will see every players hand...is that correct? If so, why?
Why what? You answered your own question here. We want the best hand to win. We want players to win or lose pots properly. Especially pots which involve possible elimination.
Quote
I'd like to start a debate on this subject because I never got the answer I wanted.  Are there different showdown procedures, from regular showdown and when any player is all-in?
What answer do you want?  :) Yes there are different procedures. Start a new thread.
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Spence

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Re: Please Help Clarify TDA Rule #11
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2011, 05:42:05 PM »
I agree. Start a thread. This is something I'd like to argue over as well.