Author Topic: What are the responsibilities of a dealer  (Read 11745 times)

Pepper_W

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What are the responsibilities of a dealer
« on: August 27, 2011, 05:50:48 AM »
Ok, I'll start this off with a general comment.  IMO dealers are there to facilitate the game and ensure all rules are followed.  This would include not only the rules of the game, but behaviors of the player while maintaining house rules of acceptable etiquette.  What I'd like some clarification on is what guidance the dealer should provide in a hand when it comes to involving themselves in player action?  I'm also curious about other people's thoughts on a dealer reacting to the cards that are shown on the board. 
I've seen a lot of smaller games in which the dealer has the uncontrollable urge to call out the board and possible hands that can be made as they are dealing.  This makes for a tough game because nobody will be drawing to a straight and miss the fact that they hit a flush, the dealer is ensuring that they don't make a rookie mistake by overlooking the flush.  Is this too much?  I've never allowed dealers to call the board in any way, but I'd like to know the general consensus on the subject.

DCJ001

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Re: What are the responsibilities of a dealer
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2011, 05:59:30 AM »
Dealers must not announce hand possibilities.

Although it would not surprise me if Nick thinks that it is okay to help the newer players.

But it is still wrong to do it.

Luca P.

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Re: What are the responsibilities of a dealer
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2011, 07:38:46 AM »
Dealer's job is shuffling, dealing cards, and ensure rules are followed.
If a player reacts to a particular situation, then Floormen comes into play, and additionally the Tournament DIrector.

Still I don't permit in ANY way dealers to announce hand possibilities, that's because of one only reason:
poker is a sport also, and like any other sports, tiredness, sleep are part of it, and these two can cause a swimmer or a football player or a poker player to commit errors sometimes :)
It's a part of the game.
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Nick C

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Re: What are the responsibilities of a dealer
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2011, 12:59:58 AM »
Pepper and Linker Split,

 The duties of dealers depends on the game being played. The board should never be announced in flop games, or button games. However, if asked the identity of a board card, the dealer should announce it. There are times when board cards are a little difficult to see because of lighting for example. In cases where players have poor eyesight the board should be called out by the dealer, if requestd. This is in compliance with TDA Rule #6 Special needs. There is a right way and a wrong way to read the board. The right way (only if requested) is to call out the individual card or cards in question. "Ace, seven, nine, three, eight." The wrong way would be "okay guys there's a four flush on board you only need one club for a flush."

 Seven card stud requires that dealers announce all new pairs on board. Low limit stud even requires that possible straights and flushes be announced on sixth street. The "possibles" must be 4 to a straight or flush. Tournament's may specify different rules but these are proper procedures for stud. Big bet poker may not allow dealers to announce any "possibles" because players that play the higher stakes are so sharp ( ;D) that they feel insulted if you tell them that Sally has four parts to a straight flush. They will usually give you some smart-ass answer like; "I can see that, why don't you give her a little more help, you moron." Actually, the reason is; Higher stakes players are (believed to be) more competent and are always aware of the opponents up-cards.

Linker_Split, I have to disagree with you when you call poker a sport...a competition, yes. I would hate to consider some of our beloved bracelet winners athletes!

I hope I didn't disapoint DCJ001 with my answers.

 
« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 11:50:06 AM by Nick C »

Pepper_W

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Re: What are the responsibilities of a dealer
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2011, 07:22:11 AM »
I have to agree that I don't see Poker as a sport.  Yes, it is a competition, sometimes an intense competition depending on the game.  Although some of the elements are in common with sporting events, IMO the intellectual side of the game overshadows the physical side of the competition.  Personally, I can see why some would think of the game as a sport, but I just don't see Poker as a sporting event. 

Spence

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Re: What are the responsibilities of a dealer
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2011, 05:50:39 PM »
I know this isn't a thread to really argue this point but I think that main event touranment poker should be considered more sporting than your regular cash game or small tournament. The physical aspect which people overlook a lot of the time is in the fact that these players will be playing ten to twelve hours per day sometimes for several days in a row. You can't deny that a person in their 20's is much more fit for this task than someone entering thier 60's. I think this is one of the big reasons why we see tournament champions getting younger and younger all the time. The physical stress of the long hours can tamper with your mental preparedness. A sport? That is still up in the air but the physical demand I don't think anyone should argue.

Nick C

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Re: What are the responsibilities of a dealer
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2011, 08:09:17 PM »
Spence,
 I don't know who the "old timers" are that you play against, but I know a few guys in their mid to late sixties that will sit all night long with no problem. I really don't understand your logic, and I don't know how conditioning makes you a better poker player. The old timers will reign again ;)
« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 08:44:09 PM by Nick C »

chet

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Re: What are the responsibilities of a dealer
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2011, 08:59:16 AM »
Nick:  No disagreement intended, but I submit that sitting for 8-10+ hours in a cash game is significantly different than sitting 8-10+ hours in a tournament with a buy-in of $1K or more.

In the cash game you can relax once in a while knowing that your each and every move may NOT take you out of the game, and even if it does, you can always add to your stack.  The opposite is true in a tournament, one wrong move and you are "out the door" and with some exceptions out of the game.

Chet

Nick C

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Re: What are the responsibilities of a dealer
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2011, 10:40:13 AM »
Chet,
 So you agree. The younger players are better because they are...young. I think they have emerged in recent years because of the games being played. By that, I am refering to no-limit poker. I'll take any of the old timers that I see on TV, or any of the old cronies I played with through the years and back them, if 7-card stud or any limit game were being played. No-limit is the equalizer. Those of you that think you lost your edge, you didn't...you're playing the wrong game. Rely on your skill and leave the "crap shoot" to the young guns. The problem is, those games are hard to find, so rather than wait for the right spot, you jump in just for the action. Wrong move. If you don't believe me, see if you can find a nice $10 and $20 game somewhere and play the game the way we used to. When you played all night, or all weekend, lost the last three pots but still went home a winner!

That's how I see it.

AlwaysLearning

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Re: What are the responsibilities of a dealer
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2011, 03:46:22 AM »
Poker is supposed to be one player to a hand. If the dealer is stating hand possibilities based on the flop, then it's no longer one player to a hand. In the same way, other players should not comment on what is possible. (Which brings up the responsibility of the dealer to remind players who don't have cards to not talk about what's possible.)

txgameshowfan

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Re: What are the responsibilities of a dealer
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2011, 05:46:54 PM »
There is a right way and a wrong way to read the board. The right way (only if requested) is to call out the individual card or cards in question. "Ace, seven, nine, three, eight." The wrong way would be "okay guys there's a four flush on board you only need one club for a flush."

Would a dealer be in the wrong if she called the board, upon request, "Ace of Club, Seven of Clubs, Nine of Hearts, Three of Clubs, Eight of Clubs"? The league I deal/TD is in a bar lighting atmosphere, which makes glare and lower-than-usual light a problem. (We bought a deck of Magnum index cards, but those proved unpopular -- even I was having trouble seeing Sixes and Nines.)

I concur that saying anything more should not be done. (And I've learned something new about dealing tonight!)

'Brian

chet

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Re: What are the responsibilities of a dealer
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2011, 07:43:57 PM »
Welcome: 

I see nothing wrong with what you are suggesting.  Especially considering your low light situation.  It is not uncommon for players to have difficulty making a differentiation between Diamonds and Spades when the lighting is poor.  So calling out both the rank and the suit is appropriate in my opinion.  That said, it has to be limited to "Ace of Spades, Deuce of Hearts, Seven of Diamonds, Queen of Diamonds and Ten of Diamonds". 

To say "Ace, Deuce, Seven, Queen and Ten, one Spade, one Heart and three Diamonds", would be unacceptable as that provides more information than just the rank and suit of the individual board cards.

Hope this helps!

Chet

Oddvark

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Re: What are the responsibilities of a dealer
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2011, 09:34:50 PM »
I think most of the responses on this thread have assumed that the game being dealt is hold 'em.  Aren't there special rules for dealers announcing hands in stud games?

I just did a google search and found the 2011 WSOP Dealer Guide, which seems relevant to this thread in general:  http://www.wsop.com/2011/2011-WSOP-Dealer-Guide.pdf

I haven't read the whole thing, but it does contain the following instructions for dealers re announcing hands in 7 card stud:

Quote
To prompt the first round of betting, the Dealer is required to announce the LOWEST CARD showing by rank AND suit.
♣ Even if there is only one card of that value on the table, all players should be aware of who is initiating the action.
While dealing the second, third and fourth round of cards (4th, 5th & 6th street), the Dealer MUST call out all pairs and higher hands that are new to the table.
Immediately after dealing each of these rounds, the Dealer must also announce the HIGHEST HAND showing to start the action.

I have also played in stud games where the dealer would announce possible straights and flushes, in addition to pairs and higher hands, when dealing 5th or 6th street.  I think there were some rules they followed in determining when it was appropriate to announce a possible straight/flush (3 consecutive or suited cards on 5th street? 4 consecutive/suited on 6th?).  Are there such rules in standard practice for stud games?

I did some more google research, and the general rule (from RRoP, I think) seems to be that dealers should not announce possible straights and flushes in stud "except for specified low stakes games". 

Interestingly, the Bicycle Playing Card website states the rules as follows:

Quote
At the start of each betting interval the dealer must announce which player bets first and identify the highest exposed holding, for example, "Pair of eights bets" or "First ace bets." The dealer should also announce, after the third and fourth face-up cards are dealt, any player's combination that, when combined with his hole card, may make a one-card draw to a flush or straight announced by saying "Possible flush" or "Possible straight."

I suppose that's appropriate for the Bicycle Playing Card website, since people only use Bicycle playing cards in low stakes games.

Kendalizor

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Re: What are the responsibilities of a dealer
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2011, 05:06:23 AM »
In stud games the bring-in card is always announced and then the biggest pair/high(unless RAZZ) card after that in order to start the action for that round in the correct spot. Possible straights, flushes, pot amounts(unless pot limit) should never be spoken and is discouraged even for players. Dealers should not announce the denomination of a bet in pot limit or no limit unless the player states it or someone asks. Generally dealing, shuffling, keeping the game moving, and enforcing rules are ideal. Of course they make errors and everyone is encouraged to keep the game correct if the dealer misreads a hand or makes incorrect change etc. Having a little fun and small talk I think is okay as long as it doesn't slow or affect the game. In some scenarios there are poor sighted or blind people and the dealer will read the board with suits but still should not announce possibilities.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 03:48:31 PM by Kendalizor »

Nick C

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Re: What are the responsibilities of a dealer
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2011, 05:42:17 AM »
Oddvark,

 I want to caution you from trying to find answers for poker questions on Google. I answered the questions about stud on my first reply on this thread. Dealers should never call possible straights or flushes until sixth street (never 5th street). I have never seen a 7 card stud game played-no-limit or pot limit. Stud is a limit game, either spread limit or structured (fixed bet). I also mentioned that in higher limit games players might ask dealers to refrain from calling any possibles on sixth street, just pairs or the high hand on board.