Author Topic: last to act with nuts  (Read 19555 times)

JasperToo

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Re: last to act with nuts
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2011, 11:36:58 AM »
How about I give you that argument right now.  I can tell you there has been a couple of times when broadway is on the board and someone had bet out like they own the place and a player has folded.  

We live for those mistakes from players, having the dealer automatically stop the play when the river deals broadway is bad, bad, bad for the game......

Nick C

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Re: last to act with nuts
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2011, 11:59:57 AM »
I see NO positive results from allowing play to continue. I understand how you feel and, I know many others feel that way too. I think it can do more harm than good, having a new player toss his hand away and become so embarassed that they don't come back. I know because I was dealing in a game when that very "move" was made on a new player and, it got so bad afterwards, the guy that bet with the nuts on board, wound-up splitting the pot with the guy a few hands later. I'll grant you, it was a cash game but, I remember how bad I felt for that player, and that was about 12 years ago. By the way, he never did return to that house game. Every now and then, the best players overlook their hands. What I am waiting for, is the players that bet and keep raising each other. Talk about a waste of time.

JasperToo

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Re: last to act with nuts
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2011, 06:41:42 PM »
Yes, a bit sad that the player didn't learn something and come back.  Tuition is a bitch.

The real point is ....  it is not up to the dealer to decide that the hand is over just because the nuts are on the board.  It's up to the players.

Pepper_W

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Re: last to act with nuts
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2011, 05:47:01 AM »
I have to agree with Jasper on this one.  Poker is a game in which we profit from the mistakes of other players.  Yes, it can be expensive sometimes to learn from your own mistakes.  Making a mistake like that can also set the ego back a little bit, but putting a player to the test and placing them in a position of possibly making a mistaken fold is an integral part of the game.  I would bet that you couldn't make that move on that particular player again without a call.
Now, I agree that there is no reason for endless raising in the hand.  I would even go so far as to say it is a waste of time to do so, but experienced players will see the move and make the call. 
In any case, its not the responsibility of the dealer to end a hand they they feel, in their opinion, that there's no point in playing the hand out.  Allowing a dealer to make that call is also allowing the dealer to influence the outcome of the game.  As a dealer I've bit my tongue while I watched that move happen countless times when the nuts hit the board on the river and the last remaining player makes a move.  As a player, I've also called such a bet in a 3-handed pot and watched one player fold allowing us to split the pot 2 ways instead of 3. 
I get the feeling in your example the player may not have been reacting to losing the hand to a misguided fold as much as he was reacting to the feedback he received from the other players.  Players can be kind of harsh with their feedback at times.  Yes, its a hard lesson to learn, but this game is full of hard lessons. 
We can all empathize with the rotten feeling the player had at the end of the hand.  No doubt the temperature in the room went way up for that player.  However, IMO, as long as bluffing remains a part of the game I wouldn't be in favor of a rule that gives a dealer the option to remove a bluff possibility in a hand and change the outcome of the game and provide an unfair advantage to a weak player. 

DCJ001

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Re: last to act with nuts
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2011, 06:03:19 AM »
by stopping the hand when the board is the nuts you're helping players with their decisions in violation of "one player to a hand."

Nick C

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Re: last to act with nuts
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2011, 10:31:08 AM »
To Jasper, Pepper and DCJ001,

 I understand how you feel and I agree that new players need to learn lessons. I always get a "kick" out of all the players that don't want the dealers to do anything,..... except:
make sure the pot is correct before they deal, make sure players don't bet out of turn, make sure that cards are not exposed when dealing, remind players to protect his or her hand, prevent stray discards from fouling a players live hand, and correcting the player that is ready to muck his winning hand........that's okay.

 Pepper, How do you see that as a dealer stopping a bluff? It's not a damn carnaval game, it's poker. " Step right up," step right up," ..."Here you go little lady, have I got a seat for you!" " We don't do a damn thing in our cardroom to protect you....so, you better be on your toes." Watch out for the smoke and mirrors and play at your own risk."
 Reminds me of a game I played in years ago. If you were lucky enough to survive the action at the table, you had a fifty-fifty chance of making it to your car with your wallet. Nice friendly poker game. :)

chet

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Re: last to act with nuts
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2011, 11:48:34 AM »
Nick:  I think you are totally wrong, with one possible exception.  That would be if it was obvious that the player was being taken advantage of in some way.  Perhaps that player was unable to see the board because of a disability.  In that or a similar case I could see the dealer having a responsibility to ensure each player knows what the board is.  Otherwise, no, the dealer should NOT take any action.

I would NOT support the dealer doing anything with an inexperienced player, that is just part of the learning experience and as is said, "You gots to pay your dues"

That is how I see it anyway. 

Chet

Nick C

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Re: last to act with nuts
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2011, 02:00:44 PM »
Chet,
 At the showdown, the dealer has a responsibility to stop any error that is about to be made. That includes reading every hand that is properly tabled, even if the owner of the hand thinks he has a loser. That is not what the rule should be directed at.

FOR DCJ001-The dealer is excluded from "one player to a hand" in this case, and any time he is doing his job.

Chet,
 Where in the heck are we getting all these disabled people from? Poker is not a game for a blind man (without assistance) or any other disability, that would compromise their chance to win. That is what the new TDA rule #6 is for.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 02:05:26 PM by Nick C »

Pepper_W

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Re: last to act with nuts
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2011, 12:59:09 PM »
Nick,  I understand your point, but the dealer is not there to influence the outcome of a hand or the outcome of the game.  If a dealer is deliberately influencing the outcome of the game in any way, as a player, I'd have serious questions as to why they were involved in protecting a particular player from making a mistake in folding or calling.  I'd also be cash out and go down the street to play.   
So, do dealers only do this for novice players they know?  Do they protect players who are regulars to the game?  Do they offer this service to players who are the best tippers?  Any rule that would allow this level of subjective influence from a dealer holds the potential to change the fundamental concept of the game.  We make our profits from other players making mistakes.  However, we typically lose money when a player is working as a team with the dealer.
Any dealer in one of my games who makes the decision to stop the action at any point because the nuts are showing on the board, or even announces this to the table, will find themselves looking for another game to deal. 


Nick C

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Re: last to act with nuts
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2011, 02:22:18 PM »
Pepper_W,
 Wow!..Relax, I was only making a suggestion on a subject that I have thought about from time to time. I've never enforced such a rule, because, it isn't one. Let the players bet and raise all they want with the nut straight on the board. That's fine.
 I will however, disagree with you when you accuse a dealer of taking sides because he reads the hands of players at the showdown. Are you telling me that you don't want the dealer to read your hand at the showdown? I've got news for you, if any dealer failed to correct any mistake, from any player that properly tabled their hand, I would have a nice talk with him or her, and it might result in some time off.
 There are dealers that do things right, and there are dealers that can't seem to get it right. I'm talking about a good dealer that knows what to do in all situations, and one of the functions of a good dealer is to read all hands that are tabled at the showdown, whether you like the idea or not.
 I also question what you are referring to when you said: "We make our profits from other players making mistakes." I hope you mean that they make a bad decison by folding the best hand when you bluff. Other than that, the best hand should win the pot.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2016, 11:36:09 AM by Nick C »

chet

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Re: last to act with nuts
« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2011, 03:01:37 PM »
Nick:

You are just plain and simple wrong.  If a player wants to fold his hand when the "nut hand" is on the board, (see reply #15) I do not believe the dealer has ANY responsibility or even RIGHT to prevent that hand from being folded.  I agree that it is an expensive lesson, but it is a lesson that has to be learned and this is the way it is.

You can rule otherwise in any room you are running, but I would not allow a dealer in any room I am running to do so, PERIOD and end of discussion on my part.

Chet

Pepper_W

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Re: last to act with nuts
« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2011, 04:49:21 PM »
That is exactly my point Nick.  If there are 3 left in the hand and the nut straight hits the board on the river.  If one player raises, the second calls and the third makes the mistake of folding, they split the pot 2 ways instead of three.  I'd call that a bluff.  You are putting a player in the position of making a mistake.  If the dealer gets in the middle and stops the action they have changed the outcome of the hand, if not the game. 

We can agree to disagree.   That's all the input I have on the subject too.

Nick C

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Re: last to act with nuts
« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2011, 05:46:41 PM »
Chet and Pepper,
 Why don't you read what I just wrote. Forget the "nuts on the board." I told you I have never made a ruling like that. The bigger issue is what you are suggesting. Betting in that situation is a bluff? No, it's not a bluff. It's an atempt to take advantage of other players and is not in the best interest of the game.

 I will repeat what I wrote on my last post that you both missed. I've never enforced such a rule, because, it isn't one. Let the players bet and raise all they want with the nut straight on the board. That's fine.
 I will however, disagree with you when you accuse a dealer of taking sides because he reads the hands of players at the showdown. If either of you would like to debate what a dealer should or should not do, at the showdown, I'm ready.

 

chet

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Re: last to act with nuts
« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2011, 07:58:42 PM »
Nick:  I am not talking about the showdown, that is a totally different situation.  I am referring to the situation in reply #15, which in which the dealer stops the action because the NUTS are on the board.  

At the showdown, the dealer has a responsibility to accurately reach (correction, should say "read") EACH AND EVERY TABLED HAND.  That said, I do not think it is the dealers responsibility to stop a player from folding IF THE HAND HAS NOT BEEN TABLED.

Chet
« Last Edit: August 27, 2011, 06:47:47 AM by chet »

Pepper_W

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Re: last to act with nuts
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2011, 05:33:58 AM »
Great suggestion Nick.  I'd be happy to discuss the responsibilities of the dealer.  Not from an argumentative point of view, but I'm always willing to discuss something like that and maybe learn something along the way.  However, I think that's a general enough topic that we should start a new thread.  I'd also be curious what other points of view are regarding the responsibilities of the dealer.