Author Topic: Allin with incorrect announce of stack amount  (Read 27527 times)

WSOPMcGee

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 334
    • The R.O.P.E.
Re: Allin with incorrect announce of stack amount
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2011, 09:39:37 AM »
Thomas:  I understand why you need a rest, especially after this discussion.  A suggestion that you may want to consider;

You can always use language similar to the following if you choose:  "For the purposes of only this rule, Gross Misunderstanding is defined as XXX% of the correct bet the player is facing".  So for example using your numbers and Brian's percentage, it would work like this:  If the announced bet is 900, any actual bet amount equal to or more than 1,350 would be a Gross Misunderstanding.

I am not a great favorite of having different definitions in different places, but sometimes that is the only practical solution.

Chet

Chet,

I like the phrasing as a starting point. I'm not sure I'm in agreement with defining it at 150% or some other percentage. But you do have to start somewhere with the figures if you're going to define something like this. You have to think through all the angles just like a poker player would. Close as many loopholes as possible and hope that doing so doesn't open up new loopholes.

The reason for defining it is obvious. Clarity. The reason for not defining it is not so clear. Just using the 150% example:

  • Player A bets $550. Dealer states $150. Player B calls $150. When the chips are small it's easy to think that the amount is NOT grossly misunderstood, but clearly the math says that it should qualify.
  • Player A bets $200,000 wiith 10 stacks of yellow chips. Player B asks the dealer for a count. Dealers are trained to break down 1 stack and verify 1 stack and match to count quickly. The dealer verifies $200,000. Player B calls. Player A is informed that they are called and wins. Player A then counts their own chips where there are 3 $25,000 chips buried in dirty stacks and declares his chip count is $275,000. Now the opposite is true from the first scenario. When the chips are big it's more easy to think that the amount IS grossly misunderstood, but the math clearly says that it should not qualify.

Maybe some language stating "players will be held to all called bets including incorrect, miscounted, misinformed wagers and will be subject to calling the correct amount wagered up to XXX% more than the stated amount."
@wsopmcgee on Twitter

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3310
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Allin with incorrect announce of stack amount
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2011, 07:25:28 PM »
Thomas,
 You corrected me on which rule I was refering to and it is 2011 WSOP Rule #89 not 91. I am trying to use the TDA rules that give no mention of "blame" or "fault" or identify the offending player as the one that did not understand the wager, or got the wrong information from the dealer. I look at TDA rule #30 that says it is the players responsibility to make his intentions clear.
 Look, my feelings, or belief is that no player should be forced to bet any amount if he is mislead by the dealer or another player. Why in the hell would a player be obligated to put in thousands more than he intended when the bettor stated the wrong amount, or he was told the wrong amount when he asked what the bet was. You can keep the rule on the books as long as you want, but I'll never use it if I have anything to say about it. I think some of the rulemakers are getting a little too technical, it's like loosing a golf tournament after shooting 10 under par (first place), only to discover that you filled out your score card incorrectly.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 05:16:10 AM by Nick C »

WSOPMcGee

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 334
    • The R.O.P.E.
Re: Allin with incorrect announce of stack amount
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2011, 09:36:37 AM »
Thomas,
 You corrected me on which rule I was refering to and it is 2011 WSOP Rule #89 not 91.
It's rule #91... the rule set you have is not up to date. But it's not important what # the rule is. What's important is that people understand the intended purpose of the rule and how to use it. Whether a WSOP rule gets adopted or incorporated into some other rule set is their prerogative. No one is forcing you to use it. Just like the TDA doesn't force anyone to use their rule set.

I think you said it well when you said "TDA rules supplement" other rule sets. Even WSOP rules.
@wsopmcgee on Twitter

chet

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 734
Re: Allin with incorrect announce of stack amount
« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2011, 11:54:57 AM »
Thomas:

Do you have or can you point us to something that will provide the basis for/history behind this rule?  I think it would be help our understanding if we had something that explains the why and wherefore this rule was adopted.  As it stands, the only thing I can think of as a basis would be the HUGE number of dealers needed for the WSOP and the fact that getting anywhere near that number of experienced dealers has to be really, really difficult.  Assuming you are stuck with 'the best you can get', I would expect this rule MAY have been adopted to put the responsibility on the player.

Nick said something in a prior post about the PGA and players being responsible for an accurate scorecard.  I know for a fact that at least once a year a PGA player is disqualified because they turned in an incorrect SIGNED scorecard.  The PGA makes the player 100% responsible, no ifs, no ands and no buts.  If the card is wrong and you signed it and turned it in, you are disqualified PERIOD.  Harsh, yes, but the PGA expects a level of professionalism and holds to that.

I think it is harsh to expect that high level of professionalism/experience for the HUGE number of players now involved with the WSOP.  However, if you are going to participate, then it is your responsibility to know the "rules of the game".  As is often said, Ignorance is no excuse.  So, while I think the rule harsh, I think I can understand it.  Would I adopt it for events I run, probably not.  But I don't run events that get thousands of players.

Pepper_W

  • TDA Member & Active Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 35
Re: Allin with incorrect announce of stack amount
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2011, 04:42:12 PM »
I'd like to weigh in on this discussion and see what you folks think.  I have considered the verbal action that Player A makes and it would be my determination that the verbal action constitutes a string bet.  Under the same rule that would prevent a player from making a raise after stating, "I call, and I Raise," the verbal action of "All-In" is the initial bet.  The player can't follow that up with another bet of a different amount, neither less nor more.  Once Player A announced "All-In" the bet was made and whatever follows doesn't count.

I feel it would be the dealer's responsibility to immediately count the chips down to verify the amount, regardless of what Player A was claiming.  By not doing so, the responsibility for ensuring the amount falls to Player B to make the request of the dealer before acting.  Since neither the Dealer nor Player B made the request to count down the chips, Player B is accepting responsibility to pay the bet off in full, including any difference between the claimed amount and the actual bet of "All-In."

Remember, it is the player's responsibility to keep up with the action on the table.  My thought is, giving up the right to have the chips accurately counted before acting doesn't relinquish Player B from paying off the full bet.

chet

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 734
Re: Allin with incorrect announce of stack amount
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2011, 05:47:51 PM »
OK Pepper W, I don't necessarily disagree.  For example, player A says "All-in for 10K", player B says "I call".  The dealer counts the stack incorrectly, for example, he counts 10,000 and misses the fact that there are 2-5K chips in addition to 8-1K chips, (because the stupid house uses black for 1K and dark blue or purple for 5K and it is very hard to see the difference in some spots) so the correct total is 18K, not 10K.

If player B wins the pot, does he get 10K or 18K?  If player A wins the pot, does player B have to pay 10K or 18K?

Whether you agree or not, the purpose of the rule is to put the responsibility on player B.  My belief is that this rule was adopted by both the WSOP and the TDA to somewhat alleviate the fact that often dealers in very large events do not speak English well and may very well not count good either.  By making the calling player responsible, any error falls on the player and not on the dealer or house.  If this was not the reason this rule was adopted, I would like to hear from anyone that knows the "real" reason.

Chet

Pepper_W

  • TDA Member & Active Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 35
Re: Allin with incorrect announce of stack amount
« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2011, 06:07:41 PM »
Very good point Chet.  We agree on putting the responsibility on Player B.  I also agree with the use of all available resources in the larger tournaments.  I've played in tournaments where that was a factor, but players have to be aware of that and compensate by being even more aware of the action. 

I was focusing on what would be in the fairness to the game.  If Player B loses, he should pay the full amount of the bet, which was "All-In."  If Player A loses the hand it wouldn't be fair to the game or the players that player A get a 900 rebate after the hand and continue playing after calling "All-In", as was brought up in an earlier post,

I'm really fighting the fact that this went down pre-flop and putting him on 2 picture cards trying to draw out on a small/mid pocket pair and would likely have called the larger amount anyway. 

I think after reading all the posts, if I'm faced with this in the future I'm going to rule it like I would a string bet.  Does that sound reasonable?



chet

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 734
Re: Allin with incorrect announce of stack amount
« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2011, 07:41:53 PM »
Pepper W:

As I expect you have gathered, if you read the whole thread, there are two schools of thought:

A)  those who support a strict interpretation of the rule making the calling player totally responsible regardless of the accuracy of any so called "count", and
B)  those who support a more liberal interpretation.  Therefore,  the reference to TDA Rule #1 within TDA Rule #42.

My point being that either position is/can be supported the way the TDA Rule is written.  Furthermore, what is more important is that whichever interpretation you take, that YOU BE CONSISTENT in the application.  Unless and until the rule is amended or whatever, consistency is more important.

Chet

Pepper_W

  • TDA Member & Active Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 35
Re: Allin with incorrect announce of stack amount
« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2011, 06:25:52 AM »
I agree completely, consistency is the key.