Author Topic: number of shuffles?  (Read 11958 times)

W0lfster

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 267
number of shuffles?
« on: May 10, 2011, 04:53:37 PM »
The other day someone told me: "When dealing a round in poker, when you deal the first hand you must make sure the cards are shuffled 7 times and for new decks in play but for subsequent deals it is 3". Is this correct?

Thanks :)

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3345
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: number of shuffles?
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2011, 12:41:58 AM »
The proper shuffle procedure (standard) required on any deal, not using the automatic shuffler, is SCRAMBLE, RIFFLE, RIFFLE, STRIP, RIFFLE, CUT AND DEAL. OR SCRAMBLE (WASH), RIFFLE, STRIP, RIFFLE, RIFFLE, CUT AND DEAL. It is sometimes written like this: shuffle, shuffle, box, shuffle. In this case, riffle and shuffle have the same meaning, so too does strip and box. I prefer two riffle's then strip and then the final riffle, but that could be a house rule. YOU CAN NOT VARY FROM THE PROPER SHUFFLE PROCEDURE, it could negate a bad beat jack-pot, or cause any number of problems. The answer to your question is NO. The procedure must be EXACT each time the dealer deals a new hand.   
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 05:34:17 AM by Nick C »

Stuart Murray

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 645
Re: number of shuffles?
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2011, 03:16:21 AM »
Andy,

I will run you through correct casino procedure, which I apply in my pubs:

Open Deck and spread, which is proofed into order and suits (A,2-Q,K)
Wash Deck
put deck back together face away from dealer
riffle twice
Strip 3 - 5 times
riffle
Cut onto cut card
Deal hand.

With a correct drop of the stub between the muck and the board you can effectively have a quick but effective wash every hand to ensure the deck is randomised each time.
When a deck is finished with, it should be proofed into order again returned to secure storage and bound with an elastic band - unless you are using american cards like KEM that warp easily

Regards
Stuart

Dave_The_Maori

  • TDA Member & Active Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 39
Re: number of shuffles?
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2011, 07:18:59 AM »
Just to add to what's already been said, here Down Under, most rooms use Riffle, Strip, Riffle, Riffle, Cut.

I've seen Riffle, Rffle, Strip, Riffle, Cut in the Northern Hemisphere and in a few rooms here. As Nick has already said, as long as the Procedure is consistent, there should be no worries.

Hope this helps :)

W0lfster

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 267
Re: number of shuffles?
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2011, 09:39:14 AM »
Thanks everyone for your replies, its really appreciated! So I guess the man was wrong you shuffle three times even the first hand. Just to add Stu on the KEM cards I know this is off topic but I have some that have warped slightly, I have put an elastic band on them for days and it was fine. After a few minutes of play they warped again, help?

When you say suits, what is the correct order of suits from left to right when fanning the deck before play commences?

Stuart Murray

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 645
Re: number of shuffles?
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2011, 10:19:46 AM »
there is no correct order of suits for proofing a deck, just that they be in suits, most casinos will use alternating colour, which makes decks easily viewed by players, LtoR diamonds, clubs, hearts, spades or clubs, diamonds, spades, hearts.  Or alternatively you can use the correct ranking of suits to proof your decks which I prefer of LtoR  (and Low to High) Clubs, Diamonds, Hearts, Spades.

With regard to the KEM's ditch them, they are a pain in the arse and exuberantly expensive, Advertised as the best cards in the world, perhaps, but I think Furnier are a better brand though, change to Furnier, Aristo, Copag or Modiano, they all retain their shape nicely, although I have always noted the Bridge size of KEM issued for the WSOP seem to retain their shape fine, whilst the poker size issued for the WSOPE warp to a ridiculous extent.  Or alternatively use cheap plastic cards that can be destroyed when damaged or mafked (especially if you are in a self deal pub envirnoment, they can be picked up from a company such as drinkstuff.com for around 1.50 a deck.)

Stu

Brian Vickers

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 454
  • Poker Manager
Re: number of shuffles?
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2011, 10:24:33 AM »
All KEM cards I've ever used will bow either up or down.  We never elastic wrapped them, either just keep them in the original box.  We switched to Copag for this reason.  Gemaco also has a premium card that is pretty nice too, but their bargain cards damage rather easily.  We have only used bridge size cards.  IMO, the best way to suit your decks is to alternate colors to make it easier to eyeball an inconsistency, and go from Ace-King all the way through.  Spade, Heart, Club, Diamond to keep it as close to the correct order of suit strength while still alternating colors.

Riffle, Riffle, Strip, Riffle, Cut has been the procedure at both of my card rooms as well.

I remember hearing a long time ago that "Seven riffles is the only way to truly randomize the cards" but here's the thing about random.... random is random.

W0lfster

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 267
Re: number of shuffles?
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2011, 10:58:27 AM »
Yeah I agree with Brian, have alternating suits, its a lot clearer. Well I have the USPC KEMs, but whenever I see them being played on tv, they dont seem to bow which confuses me. Ive heard the pre USPC ones were better quality but Ive never tried them, any thoughts?

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3345
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: number of shuffles?
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2011, 11:58:47 AM »
Andy,
 The KEM Card Company was started (or that is when the first cards were manufactured) in 1935. They have since been sold to the United States Playing Card company, about six years ago. The quality of the card was flawed at first (2005) but, I think they have it right now. The card (KEM) is heavier, and the colors are more vibrant than Copag. They also cost more. I always thought that it was strange the way some would bend up, and then a different deck would bend (or bow) down, just like Brian said.
 Andy, when you fan the cards, from left to right they should be just as you mentioned the king of diamonds on the left, and the Ace of Spades on the far right. Correct order is (from the bottom of the deck) Spades, Hearts, Clubs, and Diamonds. For your information, even left handed dealers will fan the cards (using their right hand), from left to right. You will be looking at the Ace of Spades, (far right) and the King of diamonds is the first card to touch the table.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 08:53:44 PM by Nick C »

chet

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 734
Re: number of shuffles?
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2011, 07:46:46 PM »
Guys:  With regard to the "bow" being different some bowing 'up', some bowing 'down'.  The stock from which the cards are made has grain, albeit virtually impossible to detect w/o the proper equipment, but it is there.  The reason some cards bow one way and others the other way is depending upon which side of the stock gets used for the face in a given print run.  It would be nice if the same side of the stock was always the "top", but that isn't going to happen in this day and age.  Besides, I am of the opinion that as long as the cards are printed correctly, the decks make up correctly in the box, etc., who cares?  The only real problem I can see would be if there was so much 'bow' that it affected the operation of those few places (at least few as far as most of us frequent posters are concerned) that have auto shufflers.

WOlfster:  If you really want to push the envelope regarding shuffling, my local Native American casino does this:  Scramble, shuffle, CUT (no strip), shuffle, Final Cut and Deal.  Not saying it is right, in fact I don't like it at all, but that is the way it is and NOTHING anyone says is going to change it in that room. At least as long as the current management is in charge.

Brian Vickers

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 454
  • Poker Manager
Re: number of shuffles?
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2011, 07:20:47 AM »
Our KEM setups were green and brown, and in every pair one would bow up and the other down.  It was this way in every box (24 boxes in that shipment iirc)  The bowing would cause them to not get grabbed by that little rubber wheel that shoots them to the other side of the shuffler.  We ended up having to use the weights in our shufflers that BJ uses for their 8-deck shufflers to push them down enough and actually complete the shuffle.  Only ever did one order with them and this was either '06 or '07.  We switched to Copag, and the only problem we had with them is that the color starts wearing off the back after about a month of play, but they should be cancelled every month or so anyway.

K-Lo

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 869
  • @AskTheTD on Twitter
    • Ask the Tournament Director
Re: number of shuffles?
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2012, 10:16:40 AM »
Hi Wolfster:

This is an old topic that I came across looking for info on something else, and when I first read what you had posted, it occurred to me that the "man" that was telling you about the 7 or 3 "shuffles" (which as everyone has pointed out doesn't make sense) might have actually meant "seconds" for a wash.  I have heard some people tell their dealers to use 7 seconds as a guideline for a thorough wash before the shuffle, and that a brief wash when appropriate can be done in 3 seconds.  Could that be what the person might have been referring to?

So, what I was originally looking for was any discussion on playing cards.  I understand that the bridge size are the casino standard (easier to shuffle, accomodates smaller hands, most automatic shufflers take them, etc.);  however, I was wondering whether you know of any rooms that use the larger index "poker"-size cards, in response to player demand or for whatever other reason.  
« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 10:19:35 AM by K-Lo »

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3345
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: number of shuffles?
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2012, 01:02:10 PM »
K-Lo,
 If you are referring to the "jumbo index" They are usually used for stud where they are easier to see across the table. They still use the bridge-size. I've used them about ten years ago but I honestly don't know of any casinos that use them today.

Stuart Murray

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 645
Re: number of shuffles?
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2012, 02:19:19 PM »
Poker size Jumbo Index is pretty much the standard in the UK for Hold'em, Bridge size cards are fairly rare, as is Standard Index, even on circuits such as the EPT/UKIPT they only use bridge size on the feature table with an automatic shuffle machine and those are still Jumbo Index.

Regards
Stu

JasperToo

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 328
Re: number of shuffles?
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2012, 08:39:06 AM »
I don't think anybody in California is using poker size, they all use bridge size.  However, the index size varies.

But since the topic has shifted to playing cards I was wondering if anybody is using 4 color decks.   I had heard they were becoming popular in some places but I have gotten mixed reactions when using them at some of our league games.  Any thoughts?