Author Topic: Allin with incorrect announce of stack amount  (Read 27532 times)

chet

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Re: Allin with incorrect announce of stack amount
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2011, 07:42:51 PM »
Ya, then I wouldn't have to put a magnifying glass in front of my monitor to read the micro-type  :)

WSOPMcGee

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Re: Allin with incorrect announce of stack amount
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2011, 03:54:48 AM »
wsopmcgee:

When quoting someone's post, it's best to put your reply outside of the quoted (purple) area so that the quoted post and your reply are easily distinguishable.

Just a helpful hint.

Haha... had no idea I even had done it.
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Nick C

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Re: Allin with incorrect announce of stack amount
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2011, 05:26:23 AM »
Thomas,
 How do you determine a "gross" misunderstanding? I agree with most of what you wrote, but it contradicts WSOP Rule #89. It was NOT in the 2010 Rules, but it's there now.
Why can a player ask the dealer; "is it my turn?" or "can you tell me what that turn card is ? I can't make-out the suit." Yet, the player has no right to ask how much the bet is, because whatever the dealer, or another player tells him, is meaningless? So what good is any verbal, other than all-in? The rule is ridiculous.
 Thomas, you gave some examples of what you consider gross misunderstanding, but that is only what you percieve. In a low limit game, like a spread-limit $1 to $5, Player A bets $5 and player B puts $1 in the pot and says call. Is that a gross misunderstanding?

 DCJ001, I'm sorry but I don't know how to high-light quotes either. Please don't explain it. I'll get it sorted out at the Summit.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2011, 04:25:59 PM by Nick C »

WSOPMcGee

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Re: Allin with incorrect announce of stack amount
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2011, 01:26:15 PM »
Thomas,
 How do you determine a "gross" misunderstanding? I agree with most of what you wrote, but it contradicts WSOP Rule #89. It was NOT in the 2010 Rules, but it's there now.
Why can a player ask the dealer; "is it my turn?" or "can you tell me what that turn card is ? I can't make-out the suit." Yet, the player has no right to ask how much the bet is, because whatever the dealer, or another player tells him, is meaningless? So what good is any verbal, other than all-in?

No where does the rule state that you have no right to ask how much a bet is. That would be ridiculous. The actions by Player A in this situation are only governed by the verbal statement of "All-in". What Player A says after that regarding chip count is mute. Players tend to lie, exaggerate and often miscount their chips. I"m only talking about this specific situation. If you want to discuss another situation then post an example.

Examples where a player announces a bet of $2900, but then places $3800 in the pot is a different situation. That's not what happened. Player A announced "All-in" and then declared a chip count which no one bothered to verify.
Quote
Thomas, you gave some examples of what you consider gross misunderstanding, but that is only what you percieve. In a low limit game, like a spread-limit $1 to $5, Player A bets $5 and player B puts $1 in the pot and says call. Is that a gross misunderstanding?

Yes it is IMO. I dealt $1-$5-$10 spread limit Stud for years.  That's why in these types of cash games, players are often allowed to withdraw their bets. Which I dislike very much. But it keeps the customers happy. Which in the long run is a disservice to them because they get conditioned to think that they don't have to pay attention to the action and if they make a mistake they'll be let off the hook. But that's a whole different topic. ::)
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Nick C

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Re: Allin with incorrect announce of stack amount
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2011, 06:26:36 PM »
Thomas,
    I will quote your last reply:
"No where does the rule state that you have no right to ask how much a bet is. That would be ridiculous. The actions by Player A in this situation are only governed by the verbal statement of "All-in". What Player A says after that regarding chip count is mute. Players tend to lie, exaggerate and often miscount their chips. I"m only talking about this specific situation."
 
  Here is WSOP Rule #89-Accepted Action: Poker is a game of observation. It's the players responsibility to ensure the accuracy of another player's bet and/or all-in wager regardless of what is stated by the dealer and/or other players at the table. If a player requests a count but receives incorrect information from the dealer or another player at the table, then places said amout into the pot. It is assumed he/she is accepting the action and will be subject to the correct wager and/or all-in amount
.
  IMO, based on the rule as written, VERBAL (of any amount) is NOT binding. Binding statements would include;" I'm All-in," or "I call" or" I raise." Asking the dealer how much? is meaningless, because if he gives you the wrong amout, it's still up to you to get it right. Am I missing something?

 This ridiculous rule, shifts the responsibility of making a clear bet, (that is understood by all), from the bettor... to the other players.
 
 
« Last Edit: May 08, 2011, 04:18:06 PM by Nick C »

Brian Vickers

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Re: Allin with incorrect announce of stack amount
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2011, 08:19:37 AM »
I believe I understand the intention of rule #89, but you have to admit "If a player requests a count but receives incorrect information from the dealer or another player at the table, then places said amout into the pot. It is assumed he/she is accepting the action and will be subject to the correct wager and/or all-in amount" has the strong potential for some rule #1's.

First off, it doesn't include a gross misunderstanding clause, so I'm sure you are going to see some floors make a guy who was told $8,000 put in $40,000 at some point because the dealer thought they were $1000 chips but they were actually $5000 chips.  Some players don't see very well, so all they have to go off is what the dealer tells them.  For that matter, what about if the player is completely blind?  Is he going to be held to a grossly incorrect amount when the other player and the dealer both tell him the wrong amount and he has no way to verify against that?  Players aren't allowed to touch another player's chips so it's not like they can reach over and count the stack themselves.
Discounting vision impairment, some players are just flat out not used to live poker, also not all chip colors are standardized so this can be pretty confusuing at times (I work at a casino in PA that uses pink for $100, Yellow for $500 and Brown for $1000 for instance).  And I know that it's a game of skill, and being able to count is a necessary skill... but I see this rule hurting more people than it helps and my feeling (right now at least) is that this is going to the way of the "every player has an all-in button" or "Pro Poker Peek cards".

Brian Vickers

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Re: Allin with incorrect announce of stack amount
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2011, 08:02:20 AM »
I think that if this rule just added a line that says "so long as the difference does not exceed 150% of the amount stated" I would be more acceptant of this rule.  If I say 6000 and it turns out to be 9000 it's much more acceptable than if I say 6000 and it turns out to be 26,000.  I just feel that there has to be a limit to the amount that can be mistated.  Otherwise, what's to stop a player from lying in order to try and get paid off?  If a player purposefully states "all-in for 6000" with two chip a 25k and a 1k, the next player asks "6000?" the dealer maybe even mistakenly confirms this statement, he calls, then it turns out to be $26k???  At what point was the calling player in the wrong?
I think putting a limit of 50% over the miscalled amount would help avoid what could be some really bad situations. 

WSOPMcGee

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Re: Allin with incorrect announce of stack amount
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2011, 10:47:14 AM »
Sorry guys, didn't mean to abandon this thread... just got really busy between two WPT's and now the WSOP.

Nick, I understand your frustration with the wording of the rule. In our Sup. meeting this rule caused a bit of heated debate. The intent of the rule is as Brian posted, intended to help players understand that they a responsible for the accuracy of a bet, whether winning or losing the amount wagered. That's the "Spirit" of the rule. However, it needs a desperate rewrite.

Because of this rule, the debates began over a scenario like this:

Blinds 100 - 200

Player A calls for 200
Player B raises to 900
Player C puts 200 into the pot to call unaware of the raise.

Let's stop it here

It is current common practice, with good reason IMO, that Player C now has two options: 1) Call 700 more and correcting the bet to 900 or 2) Fold and forfeit the 200.

Several senior staff argued that because of rule #91 (changed from #89) making the player responsible for everything, that Player C MUST call 700 more and correct the bet to 900. They also argued that if Player B had moved all-in for any amount, be it 900, 9,000, or 90,000, that if Player C places 200 into the pot, then again they are responsible for the All-in amount with no redress. And it wasn't so much the fact that these staff members were trying to enforce the rules in the will of good sportsmanship, they wanted to hold every player accountable for all bets wagered, and believe that current practice lets players "off the hook" for only 200 with no penalty for not paying attention to the table by allowing them to fold. Many also disagreed with this thought process. What these staff members failed to realize is that those players are being penalized. They are forfeiting 200 while conceding a chance to contest for the pot! Not only that, but you leave Player C in a vulnerable spot to Player A who has had the betting opened up to them.

Ultimately I'm currently under the impression that there was no procedural changes in this regard. IMO it would be a monumental disaster.

Brian states there should be some adaptation of an allotment of some percentage that is acceptable in case of misinformation / misrepresentation of a bet and suggests 150%. This is exactly why in the ROPE I use the phrase "Gross Misunderstanding" of the bet. What needs to be addressed further is, what is a "Gross Misunderstanding". But the problem is, if you define what a gross misunderstanding is with a specific percentage, I'm sure it'll present other problems/challenges in the future of a nature that I'm too tired to contemplate. 

And if all this is unclear... I'm sorry but I'm in desperate need of sleep!!
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chet

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Re: Allin with incorrect announce of stack amount
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2011, 11:33:58 AM »
Thomas:  I understand why you need a rest, especially after this discussion.  A suggestion that you may want to consider;

You can always use language similar to the following if you choose:  "For the purposes of only this rule, Gross Misunderstanding is defined as XXX% of the correct bet the player is facing".  So for example using your numbers and Brian's percentage, it would work like this:  If the announced bet is 900, any actual bet amount equal to or more than 1,350 would be a Gross Misunderstanding.

I am not a great favorite of having different definitions in different places, but sometimes that is the only practical solution.

Chet

Nick C

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Re: Allin with incorrect announce of stack amount
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2011, 03:51:21 PM »
 I don't care what the reasons are, if a player makes an honest mistake that does not mislead any other player, he should be allowed to even retract his incorrect wager. What happened to substantial action? Are you saying that it does not apply in this situation? I said it before and I'll say it again, that rule won't be around next year, at least not the way it is currently written.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 07:03:29 PM by Nick C »

pabdex

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Re: Allin with incorrect announce of stack amount
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2011, 02:47:54 AM »
2 things.

First, If I understand the rules correctly the player is responsible for making sure of the size of the bet/raise he/she is facing. This regardless of if the amount has  been wrongly given by the dealer and another player/other players. So the way I see it is that the only way the player can take full responsibility for his own action is to count the chips him/her self. But you are not allowed to touch another players chips. So what are his/her options to make a 100 % sure he/she gets the amount correct? Can the player ask the dealer to spread the betters/raisers chips in front of him/her so he/she can count them"

Second, I would like to add a what-if here. I encountered a similar situation. The numbers were different but I'll use the ones from this example. In this case the caller said "ok, I will call your 2900". Should the fact that the caller verbally announced the amount he called make any difference as to his responsibilty?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 03:09:39 AM by pabdex »

Nick C

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Re: Allin with incorrect announce of stack amount
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2011, 04:41:14 AM »
Pabdex,
 First of all, the rules we are currently talking about are not from the TDA. Rule #30 is as close as the TDA gets to clarifying bet amounts. I will "quote" the last line of the rule: IT IS THE PLAYER'S RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE HIS INTENTIONS CLEAR......WSOP Rule #89 puts the responsibility on the player calling the bet......that's why I have a problem with their rule #89.

 Your second question: you said, in your example that the caller said "ok, I will call your 2900." My answer would be yes if in fact that was the correct amount of the bet to him. If the bettor said I bet 3900 and the caller said I call 2900, that's different.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 07:06:07 PM by Nick C »

pabdex

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Re: Allin with incorrect announce of stack amount
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2011, 05:20:33 AM »
I can see I should clearify. The situation is identical to the one posted by demon at the beginning of this thread. Meaning. one player moves all-in and states an incorrect (lower than the actual) amount. The difference from demons example is that the caller verbally announces the amount he calls.....

WSOPMcGee

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Re: Allin with incorrect announce of stack amount
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2011, 08:28:45 AM »
WSOP Rule #89 puts the responsibility on the player calling the bet......that's why I have a problem with their rule #89.
It's Rule #91.
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WSOPMcGee

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Re: Allin with incorrect announce of stack amount
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2011, 08:43:40 AM »
I don't care what the reasons are, if a player makes on honest mistake that does not mislead any other player, he should be allowed to even retract his incorrect wager. What happened to substantial action? Are you saying that it does not apply in this situation? I said it before and I'll say it again, that rule won't be around next year, at least not the way it is currently written.
Just curious Nick why you feel like you need be the gov't in cases like this? We can not, and should not, protect every player from themselves because they make an "honest mistake" or some other error.

I can't think of a more fitting ironic phrase than "honest mistake" in a poker game. A game built on deception and misinformation in order to mislead your opponent into making the wrong decision. Honest mistake indeed.

You may not believe the rule will be around next year, but I assure you that it will. Only it will be defined more clearly.

As far as substantial action, I do not believe it applies here. The action is already completed. A bet was made and accepted. Even though accepted for an incorrect amount. But not for an amount that would classify as "Gross misunderstanding" ;)
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