Author Topic: Chip Race - Round up/down?  (Read 20459 times)

Brian Vickers

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 454
  • Poker Manager
Chip Race - Round up/down?
« on: April 25, 2011, 11:48:07 AM »
I have seen some TD's do this one way, and some do it another way, and since I don't see it addressed in the rules, I would like your opinions.
When doing the chip race, do you guys round up or round down the last stack and does it matter if it's 50% or more than what a full stack would be... for example: After dealing out all the cards, you gather all the $25 value chips.  There are 9 $25 chips for a total of $225.  Would you round up and call this 3 $100 chips to hand out or would you round down and call it 2 $100 chips?  What about if it was 10 $25 chips and you had $250, same thing?

I have always rounded up any amounts during the race, so in my example above, $225 would become $300.  I have played in places that have done it both ways.  I was planning on waiting to address this during the Summit, but I think getting the discussion going ahead of time would be good.

chet

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 734
Re: Chip Race - Round up/down?
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2011, 12:54:33 PM »
Here's my 2 cents worth:

Less than 50% of the value of the lowest chip remaining in play (in your example $100) would be rounded DOWN.  50% or more of the lowest chip remaining in play would be rounded UP. 

So in your example, for 9 $25 chips, I would award 2 $100 chips.  For 10 $25 chips, I would award 3 $100 chips.

This is the closest way to keep your chip counts accurate.  Always rounding down or up will have a much greater affect on the total chips in play.

Chet

Spence

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 355
Re: Chip Race - Round up/down?
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2011, 09:49:39 PM »
I think RRoP has the 50% rule. In the Casino's that I've worked we always round up. I don't mind it either way. Keeping the average stack as close as possible to the starting count seems like the best idea from a TD perspective but I feel like it is most equitable to round up. Just one thing to add as well, remember that a player cannot be raced out of a tournament.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 04:03:32 PM by Spence »

Stuart Murray

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 645
Re: Chip Race - Round up/down?
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2011, 07:02:02 AM »
Interesting, I thought TDA rules specified more than 50% where odd chips remain, which is what he have done, which now needs to change according to RROP rules as it specifies 50% or more:

TDA Rule 16.   Chip Race
When it is time to color-up chips, they will be raced off with a maximum of one chip going to any player. The chip race will always start in the No.1 seat. A player cannot be raced out of a tournament: a player who loses his or her remaining chip(s) in a chip race will be given one chip of the smallest denomination still in play. Players are encouraged to witness the chip race.

RROP Rule 11.
The lowest denomination of chip in play will be removed from the table when it is no longer needed in the blind or ante structure. All lower-denomination chips that are of sufficient quantity for a new chip will be changed up directly. The method for removal of odd chips is to deal one card to a player for each odd chip possessed. Cards are dealt clockwise starting with the 1-seat, with each player receiving all cards before any cards are dealt to the next player. A player may not be eliminated from the event by the chip-change process. If a player has no chips after the race has been held, he will be given a chip of the higher denomination before anyone else is awarded a chip. Next, the player with the highest card by suit gets enough odd chips to exchange for one new chip, the second-highest card gets to exchange for the next chip, and so forth, until all the lower-denomination chips are exchanged. If an odd number of lower-denomination chips are left after this process, the player with the highest card remaining will receive a new chip if he has half or more of the quantity of lower-denomination chips needed, otherwise nothing.

This would therefore IMO that if you are racing greens and high carding for 350 chips that 400 goes onto the table if the next person to receive a chip has received 2 or more cards for the off 25's

Regards
Stuart

WSOPMcGee

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 334
    • The R.O.P.E.
Re: Chip Race - Round up/down?
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2011, 10:34:21 PM »
ROPE

Color Ups

As the tournament progresses, Color Ups of the lowest denomination chip in play will be done when that chip is no longer needed in the blind or ante structure. All lower denominations that are of sufficient quantity to color up for larger denominations will be changed up directly.

The procedure for removal of lower denomination odd chips is called a Chip Race or Race Off. The method for removal is to deal cards clockwise starting with seat 1, with each player receiving one card consecutively for each odd chip possessed.

Next, each of the players with the highest card by suit are awarded a maximum of one chip, until the total amount of the lower denomination chips is equal to that of the next highest denomination chip, i.e. $425 in $25 chips is equal to 4 players being awarded one $100 chip each. Should the total value of the odd chips left over from the chip race total to a value of 50% or more of the next highest chip in play, then one additional chip will be issued. One player at each table will be asked to buy up the chips to be taken out of play. Players are urged to watch the chip race.

A player may not be eliminated from the event by the chip race process. If a player has no chips after the race has been held, they will be given one chip of the lowest denomination left in play.
@wsopmcgee on Twitter

Dave_The_Maori

  • TDA Member & Active Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 39
Re: Chip Race - Round up/down?
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2011, 06:03:10 AM »
ROPE

Color Ups

As the tournament progresses, Color Ups of the lowest denomination chip in play will be done when that chip is no longer needed in the blind or ante structure. All lower denominations that are of sufficient quantity to color up for larger denominations will be changed up directly.

The procedure for removal of lower denomination odd chips is called a Chip Race or Race Off. The method for removal is to deal cards clockwise starting with seat 1, with each player receiving one card consecutively for each odd chip possessed.

Next, each of the players with the highest card by suit are awarded a maximum of one chip, until the total amount of the lower denomination chips is equal to that of the next highest denomination chip, i.e. $425 in $25 chips is equal to 4 players being awarded one $100 chip each. Should the total value of the odd chips left over from the chip race total to a value of 50% or more of the next highest chip in play, then one additional chip will be issued. One player at each table will be asked to buy up the chips to be taken out of play. Players are urged to watch the chip race.

A player may not be eliminated from the event by the chip race process. If a player has no chips after the race has been held, they will be given one chip of the lowest denomination left in play.

Thomas,
Are you saying that if a player uses their last chip (Inferior denomination) for the "Chip Race", you would complete the race and then give them their Chip Up (Lowest denomination)?

I've always known to be done before awarding the high cards. Is that common practice?

Stuart Murray

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 645
Re: Chip Race - Round up/down?
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2011, 06:55:51 AM »
RROP is specific in that you should award a player who has no chips left the first chip, ROPE not so specific on that front but more clear on how many chips should go onto the table, a balance between the two seems to be the way to go, a player that is about to be raced out of a tourn should get the first chip available, and that 50% or more of the new lowest denomination requires a colour up to that value.

Stu

WSOPMcGee

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 334
    • The R.O.P.E.
Re: Chip Race - Round up/down?
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2011, 02:33:27 PM »
    ROPE

    Color Ups

    As the tournament progresses, Color Ups of the lowest denomination chip in play will be done when that chip is no longer needed in the blind or ante structure. All lower denominations that are of sufficient quantity to color up for larger denominations will be changed up directly.

    The procedure for removal of lower denomination odd chips is called a Chip Race or Race Off. The method for removal is to deal cards clockwise starting with seat 1, with each player receiving one card consecutively for each odd chip possessed.

    Next, each of the players with the highest card by suit are awarded a maximum of one chip, until the total amount of the lower denomination chips is equal to that of the next highest denomination chip, i.e. $425 in $25 chips is equal to 4 players being awarded one $100 chip each. Should the total value of the odd chips left over from the chip race total to a value of 50% or more of the next highest chip in play, then one additional chip will be issued. One player at each table will be asked to buy up the chips to be taken out of play. Players are urged to watch the chip race.

    A player may not be eliminated from the event by the chip race process. If a player has no chips after the race has been held, they will be given one chip of the lowest denomination left in play.

    Thomas,
    Are you saying that if a player uses their last chip (Inferior denomination) for the "Chip Race", you would complete the race and then give them their Chip Up (Lowest denomination)?

    I've always known to be done before awarding the high cards. Is that common practice?
    Dave,

    Yes, the practice is:
    • Step 1) Do the chip race for lowest denomination odd chips being removed from play.
      • A. Players can not be raced out of a tournament. Any player racing off their remaining chips shall participate in the chip race.
    • Step 2) Award 1 chip per player, high card by suit. Each player may only receive one chip.
      • A. Players who have raced off their last remaining chips shall receive 1 chip of the lowest denomination remaining in play.
    That's the short of it.

    You do it this way to ensure that no extra chips are put into play unnecessarily. Hopefully the player racing off their last chips will win one of the chips legitimately.

    [/list]
    « Last Edit: May 06, 2011, 02:41:12 PM by wsopmcgee »
    @wsopmcgee on Twitter

    Spence

    • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
    • ***
    • Posts: 355
    Re: Chip Race - Round up/down?
    « Reply #8 on: June 05, 2011, 09:30:15 PM »
    Earlier I stated that at my old place we always rounded up. I just realized why that is probably not the best. If you are at 50% you should round down. More than 50% is fine to round up but 50% and lower must be rounded down. Reason being if you had only 2 players remaining with $25 to race off they would be combined for 150 making only a single $100 up for grabs or you would be doing a race for no reason. Rounding up both players would win a chip and you are causing more work for yourelf. Does this make sense to anyone else?

    Brian Vickers

    • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
    • ***
    • Posts: 454
    • Poker Manager
    Re: Chip Race - Round up/down?
    « Reply #9 on: June 06, 2011, 10:27:20 AM »
    Right, if they both had $75 in $25's and there were only two of them they would both end up with a $100 chip each, so it shsould be "greater than 50%" to round up.  I'd like to see this added to the rules this summit (whether 50% or whatever is decided).

    chet

    • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
    • ***
    • Posts: 734
    Re: Chip Race - Round up/down?
    « Reply #10 on: June 06, 2011, 07:07:40 PM »
    If you want to use a rounding rule that every US player is likely familiar with go to everyone's friend  ::), the IRS.  Basically the IRS rule for rounding on tax returns is this:  If the cents are between 1 and 49, round DOWN to the dollar.  If the cents are between 50 and 99, round UP to the next higher dollar.

    So, any amount between $19.01 and $19.49 is rounded down to $19.00 and any amount between $19.50 and $19.99 is rounded up to $20.00.

    Nick C

    • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
    • ***
    • Posts: 3359
      • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
    Re: Chip Race - Round up/down?
    « Reply #11 on: June 08, 2011, 02:47:08 PM »
    Chet,
     I like it. You could use the same formula for raising in no limit games (when all-in) instead of what we use now. Way off the track but simple enough.

    Oddvark

    • TDA Member & Active Poster
    • **
    • Posts: 25
    Re: Chip Race - Round up/down?
    « Reply #12 on: June 09, 2011, 12:41:49 AM »
    Earlier I stated that at my old place we always rounded up. I just realized why that is probably not the best. If you are at 50% you should round down. More than 50% is fine to round up but 50% and lower must be rounded down. Reason being if you had only 2 players remaining with $25 to race off they would be combined for 150 making only a single $100 up for grabs or you would be doing a race for no reason. Rounding up both players would win a chip and you are causing more work for yourelf. Does this make sense to anyone else?

    I agree that it is best not to always round or always round down, but to use some metric in the middle, in order to keep the total chip count as close as possible to the original amount.  The question really is whether to round up at 50% or at "more than 50%".

    However, I don't think you should use the one situation when coloring up/racing off $25 chips with only two players holding $75 each to decide.  It is true that using a "more than 50%" rule would prevent both players in that case from receiving a $100 chip and making the race off unnecessary.  But there are situations where even when using the "more than 50%" rule, all players would "win" a race off.  For example, when racing off $100 chips, if only two players are left with $400 each for a total of $800, using the "more than 50%" rule would still result in awarding a $500 chip to both players.  And similar circumstances could arise when coloring up $1000, too.

    I prefer the straight 50% rule.  The one situation I think of is when racing off $500 chips and only one player remains with one extra $500 chip.  If you round up at 50%, that player will be awarded a $1000 chip.  If you round up only at "more than 50%", that player will lose $500.