Author Topic: Muck situation  (Read 11910 times)

W0lfster

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Muck situation
« on: April 23, 2011, 06:51:19 AM »
NL holdem game. Flop is dealt, SB bets and BB touching his cards and not really looking at the table accidentally slides them in a forward motion, again his hands are on the cards. However, with this game there is a betting line and one of the cards is behind the betting line while the other is half way over the line, is this a dead hand? If a player slides both his cards in a forward motion over the betting line while still touching his cards is his/her hand dead also? Are they entitled to keep their cards?

If a player accidentally slides ONE card over the line WITHOUT is his/her hand dead also?

As rare as it is, it is still something to consider Ive had this done before in a home game and Ive let the other players play on. However, that does not mean to say proper rules should be avoided they are there for a reason.

Any thoughts?

Thx :)



chet

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Re: Muck situation
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2011, 09:25:55 AM »
Andy:

1.  In my opinion, the 'normal' action to fold one's cards would include a "RELEASE" of the cards from the players hand.  In your first example, the player still had his hand on the cards so I would rule this was NOT a fold. 

That said, I would explain to this player that he is 'flirting' with a problem by letting his card cross the line.  Furthermore, if he continues this practice I think you could find cause for a formal penalty, ie., rule the hand folded at a minimum, based on your prior explanation.  He appears to be an "angle shooter".

2.  I am not sure I understand your send question.  "WITHOUT" what, releasing his cards?  I think the pertinent word here is "accident".  As above, I would normally rule the hand is still live, with the caveats explained in #1 above.

Chet

Nick C

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Re: Muck situation
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2011, 10:04:02 AM »
After the flop the hand should be taken in by the dealer and mucked. The intent of the player, pushing their cards in a forward motion on their turn to act, could be enough to get a reaction from a player behind him. The betting line (IMO) could only confirm that the obvious intent of the BB was to fold. Without a betting line, the player could argue that his hand is still live as long as it has not hit the muck. In that case, a warning and or a penalty could be enforced.

I will quote what Chet said in part: " I would explain to this player that he is 'flirting' with a problem by letting his card cross the line.  Furthermore, if he continues this practice I think you could find cause for a formal penalty, ie., rule the hand folded at a minimum, based on your prior explanation.  He appears to be an "angle shooter".

The betting line does not allow players to retract their bets, or their cards. That is what the line is for. Players can't accidently push their cards over the line.


W0lfster

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Re: Muck situation
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2011, 10:35:44 AM »
My apologies Chet, I meant if a player releases one of his/her cards accidentally over the line WITHOUT TOUCHING his/her cards, is/her hand dead also?

Not angle shooting, as I can understand this would be deliberate but accidental is a different scenario. Im talking a player who likes to fiddle with his/her cards a lot and as you've seen some poker players like to slide their cards backwards and forwards underneath each other especially when facing a decision and their turn to act. My point is, if a player did that which is perfectly within the rules, if ONE of those cards is accidentally released in the process would you as the dealer allow the player to have that card back and rule his/her hand live? Again this card has been released and NOT touched the muck and the player is not touching it.

So are you saying Chet, if for example the player does this sliding practice with his cards as ive mentioned with his/her hand touching both of the cards at all times, his/her hand is not dead even though he/she did this over the line?

chet

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Re: Muck situation
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2011, 11:34:08 AM »
From Wolfster:

"So are you saying Chet, if for example the player does this sliding practice with his cards as ive mentioned with his/her hand touching both of the cards at all times, his/her hand is not dead even though he/she did this over the line?"

What I am saying is that I will "forgive" the transgression ONCE, after explaining the "rules of the line" as determined by your HOUSE RULES, to the player, any further instances would not be excused.  If you house rules say a hand is dead if either or both hole cards cross the line, then it is dead.  However, you have to be sure the player is aware of those house rules. 

Chet

W0lfster

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Re: Muck situation
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2011, 11:41:44 AM »
Fair enough, makes sense but why Chet would you call it dead when on a second incidence or more when the player is still touching them? As far as im concerned if he has not let go of his hand that would still be live yes? Angle shooting or not regardless if the cards are over the line.

Correct me if im wrong thanks.

Also I dont think this was answered but if a player did this and it went HALF WAY over the line, is the hand dead?

chet

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Re: Muck situation
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2011, 02:25:45 PM »
Andy:  You can answer your own questions.  Here is how:  Write your house rule so that it is crystal clear as to what constitutes the hand being dead.  If the player has to release the cards, then your rule might say something like "Any hand that is moved forward and released by the player, where any part of the hand touches or crosses the line is a dead hand."  OR "Any hand that is moved forward, where any part of the hand touches or crosses the line, regardless if released or not, is a dead hand."

It all depends upon how you want to write your rule.  If you think you have angle shooters that are trying to get a reaction by moving their cards forward, write a rule that resolves that problem.  For example, you could reword the last example above to say, "Any hand that is moved forward, even if the hand does not touch or cross the line, regardless if released or not, is a dead hand."  I am not advocating such a stringent rule, but it is an example only.  My opinion would be that if you were to adopt such a rule, there is no point to having the "Dreaded Line."

You need to decide what you want to do, what kind of actions you want to prevent and write you rule accordingly.  THEN, you need to make sure your players are aware of the rule, especially if you have changed something.

Chet

btw:  As to your last question, every place I have ever played that uses the betting line, has PLENTY of ROOM behind the line for a player to twiddle his cards or whatever without coming in contact with the line.  If a player has so many chips that there is no room, that is easily resolved by a color up, regardless of whether it is a cash game or tournament.  Again, answer your own question by the way you write the rule.

W0lfster

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Re: Muck situation
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2011, 02:58:40 PM »
Thanks Chet, that is really helpful, I guess I jump to think that the TDA rules are all Universal however they are not. As much as we try to make them it just isn't going to happen in a
hurry. That said, is there anything in the TDA which would make this example a more standard rule/procedure rather than a house rule? I think there is a lot of confusion with players and not just myself about what is standard and what is house rules, I think the TDA need to address this point further regardless of how well written it is and RROP to make it much more concrete than it is now.

chet

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Re: Muck situation
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2011, 04:47:43 PM »
Andy:  I do not think the TDA will adopt a rule that involves the "Betting Line".  The reason being that use of the "Betting Line" is not universal.  Furthermore, I am not sure you can write a single rule for determining whether a hand has been "mucked" that would universally apply to houses that use the "Betting Line" and at the same time to those that do not. 

Remember, it is not the intent of the TDA to come up with a whole complete package of rules that stand on their own.  I believe it is the intent of the TDA to develop rules that supplement (NOT SUPPLANT) the General Poker Rules used by most casinos/cardrooms when sponsoring tournaments.

I am sure you will agree that the European General Poker Rules differ somewhat from the US General Poker Rules, whether because of Gaming Authority regulations or just by general customs developed over the years.  Think for a bit how you would write one rule that covers this situation and applies to both to houses that use the line and to those that do not.  I don't think you can write one rule that would be universally acceptable.

Chet

Spence

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Re: Muck situation
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2011, 07:26:19 PM »
I'm surpried that this string got so far. I think Chet sums it up very well in his immediate reply:
EDITED:
Andy:
1.  In my opinion, the 'normal' action to fold one's cards would include a "RELEASE" of the cards from the players hand.  In your first example, the player still had his hand on the cards so I would rule this was NOT a fold. 
I think the only point that I can add here is that the word "RELEASE" indicates that the player meant for the action. I don't believe that the word "release" can constitute an accidental loss of control for your cards. Perhaps this muddys up the rule but as TD's we don't want our rules to tie our hands. Be equitable and warn the player if you know that it was by mistake but "Releasing" your cards, is a concession. Once you "Release" your cards in a forward motion towards the dealer, or muck, or however you word it in your room, you have conceded any claim to the pot.

W0lfster

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Re: Muck situation
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2011, 02:36:34 AM »
and if you very lighlty push your cards towards the dealer and they still havent passed the line, will the dealer still muck them?

chet

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Re: Muck situation
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2011, 07:53:45 AM »
Andy: 

Some things you have to decide for yourself. 

Chet

Nick C

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Re: Muck situation
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2011, 04:00:50 PM »
Andy,
 If you were playing, and you wanted to stay in the hand, would you push your cards forward towards the betting line? It is up to the player to make his intentions clear to all players, and the dealer. That is why TD's and floorpersons rule those hands dead. If you like your hand, PROTECT IT.

Brian Vickers

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Re: Muck situation
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2011, 04:37:16 PM »
To reiterate, how you utilize the betting line in regards to mucking is up to you but I can provide you with information on how it is done in other rooms. 

In our house, the betting line is of little relevance in this case except that it will be the visual cue the dealer is looking for to signify that the player is mucking.   A player's hand is live until it is recovered by a player other than the owner of the cards.  If a player slides his cards forward, regardless of how far, it is not dead unless A) He/she says fold.  B) The dealer or another player gets a hold of them.  C) They come into contact with the muck pile or any other face down cards.
Our dealers are trained to muck hands ASAP when they seem them come across the line, but the hand is not technically dead until one the aforementioned requirements have been fulfilled.