Author Topic: dead hand? whats the procedure?  (Read 7776 times)

W0lfster

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 267
dead hand? whats the procedure?
« on: April 04, 2011, 03:33:55 AM »
I heard a rule that if you show your cards to someone who is not in the hand your hand is dead but you must show your hand when the hand has finished. I think this is the right rule anyway, and if this is so, then how does the dealer muck the dead hand when he/she has to show everyone the hand after the river has been played out? Because once the cards are in the muck, there is no way to retrive them. Would the dealer instead keep the player's cards to themselves until the hand has been played out? I also heard if you show your cards to a player who is in a hand you then have to show everyone immediately but I dont think its a dead hand.

Any thoughts?
Thx  :)

Dave_The_Maori

  • TDA Member & Active Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 39
Re: dead hand? whats the procedure?
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2011, 04:51:16 AM »
I heard a rule that if you show your cards to someone who is not in the hand your hand is dead but you must show your hand when the hand has finished. I think this is the right rule anyway, and if this is so, then how does the dealer muck the dead hand when he/she has to show everyone the hand after the river has been played out? Because once the cards are in the muck, there is no way to retrive them. Would the dealer instead keep the player's cards to themselves until the hand has been played out?

According to TDA rules, a player who accidentally reveals their hand will NOT have a dead hand. So, this begs the question, was it intentional?!?!

In your first example, you said that a player revealed their hand to another player who had already folded their hand. There are some rooms that would class this as a "Dead Hand" but there are alot that wouldn't. So it would depend heavily on what the house rules / procedures are. To answer your question, I would have to  assume that they revealed their hand on purpose and they also did it during a live hand that they were still in. If I was called to make a ruling at this point, then IMO I would force that player to play with an "Open Hand", meaning everyone at the table sees the hand, but it will still be LIVE. I would also assess that player for a minimum one round penalty which will start on the next hand.

In your second statement:

I also heard if you show your cards to a player who is in a hand you then have to show everyone immediately but I dont think its a dead hand.

According to TDA rules, this is true.

Hope this helps :)

Brian Vickers

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 454
  • Poker Manager
Re: dead hand? whats the procedure?
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2011, 08:55:35 AM »
Generally, killing a hand should only be ruled as a last resort.  This is especially true for infractions like this.  In the case of an exposed hand, the hand should be played to a finish and the penalty should be awarded at the conclusion of the hand. 

Whether or not to show the hand right then or after the hand is finished depends on the following:
If a player shows his cards to another player who also has cards in front of him/her then the hand must be exposed immediately for all other live players to see.
If a player shows his cards to another player who is out of the hand, then the cards should be shown to the other players after action is complete on the entire hand. (some rooms will say that a player must request to see the hand in this instance.)

The reason that a penalty should be assessed regardless if the other player has cards too is that showing cards violates a few poker principles.  One violation is the "every player is required to act in his own interest" and the "one player to a hand" rule. 
If a player shows his cards to an active player, it's pretty clear cut that action will be affected as a result. 
If a player shows his cards to a player who is out of the hand, two things could happen:  that other player could in some way advise the active player on how to play his hand, or that other player may get that information to a different live player somehow.  Also, it unfairly gives that player an insight that other players don't have for future hands.

In the case of showing an inactive player, a warning or one-hand penalty could suffice for first offense, as the consequences of the infraction on the outcome of the hand aren't as severe.

regardless, this information should be told to all players before the start of the tournament.

W0lfster

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 267
Re: dead hand? whats the procedure?
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2011, 03:50:19 AM »
Ok, but what if the other player had seen an opponent's hand because that player lifted thier cards too high? What would be the procedure? Get the player who saw the player's cards to whisper what cards they were rank and suit?

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3356
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: dead hand? whats the procedure?
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2011, 04:47:52 AM »
Andy,
 I think Dave and Brian answered your original question. It takes more than exposed cards to kill a player's hand. Your last question where a player "flashes" his hand to another player or gives him a "glimpse" is a tough one. The dealer would have to recognize that the offending player might be holding his cards in such a manner that others can see them. Usually the dealer will tell the player to watch your cards and hold them so they can't be seen. If it is obvious that the player is doing this intentionally, then immediate action should be taken by calling the floor and letting them enforce rule #1. Penalties for this type of unethical practice are neccessary, however they offer little protection for players in the current hand. I have actually stopped any further betting. Of course that would depend on a number of factors, like when the cards were exposed. I have had players call me over to a table to tell me that a player was showing their cards and when I asked what the cards were, they were wrong more than they were right, so that's a tough one.
 A stern warning followed by a penalty should be enough to stop a player from a repeat offense. If they insist on flashing their hand then I would rule that the hand be exposed to all players until they get the message. Hope this helps.

W0lfster

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 267
Re: dead hand? whats the procedure?
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2011, 05:15:07 AM »
I see what you are saying Nick, but what would be wrong in the procedure I have just described?

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3356
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: dead hand? whats the procedure?
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2011, 06:07:15 AM »
The procedure you mentioned would involve stopping the action, calling the floor, explaining the situation. The player or dealer who saw the hand would have to whisper to the floor what the cards were and then look at the players hand to confirm. Are they required to know rank and suit, as you stated? Or just the rank? What if they are wrong? I think you can see where this would never work. IMO, one of the many responsibilities of a dealer is to make sure that all players protect their own hand. This includes, securing the identity of their hole cards. They MUST remain "private cards" until the showdown, or in certain all-in situations. I hope I answered your question.

W0lfster

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 267
Re: dead hand? whats the procedure?
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2011, 07:19:05 AM »
Well then cant a TD come over to the table and then have the player who caught a glimpse whisper in the TD's ear to say what the cards were and yes I think suits should count also in case of a possible flush. Get the TD to look at the cards then give them back to the offending player. If the cards do not match what the player thought he/she saw then I think allowing the offender to continue on with the hand would be acceptable, what do you think?

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3356
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: dead hand? whats the procedure?
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2011, 07:30:41 AM »
Andy,
 Telling a player that the cards he thought he saw were incorrect would be far too much information, don't you think? "Hey, Benjamin, Sally is not holding the 7,8 of clubs, like you said." Therefore, in my opinion, it is totally unacceptable.

Brian Vickers

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 454
  • Poker Manager
Re: dead hand? whats the procedure?
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2011, 07:19:07 AM »
Yeah, like Nick said that would be too much information revealed.  Ask the dealer if he saw the guy showing off his hand, and if you aren't sure whether or not the player exposed his hand, just give a warning.  If you've done your due diligence then the matter is settled.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2011, 07:20:54 AM by Brian Vickers »

chet

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 734
Re: dead hand? whats the procedure?
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2011, 04:06:15 PM »
Andy:  Brian and Nick have said all that needs to be said.  If the player cannot follow the rules, then they need to learn the consequences.  Kind of like, if you want to listen to the music, you have to pay the fiddler.

Chet