Author Topic: Incomplete call, then regretting  (Read 5777 times)

pabdex

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Incomplete call, then regretting
« on: June 02, 2011, 10:36:43 AM »
Blinds are 400-800. The UTG player, without any verbal declaration, starts to make a call by tossing a 500 chip over the line. He then regrets and mucks his cards. The TD ruled that he had to put the remaining 300 in to make it a complete call and still having his hand folded. Was this a correct ruling or should he just have "lost" the 500?

Anders

MikeB

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Re: Incomplete call, then regretting
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2011, 11:13:06 AM »
This isn't a case of a mistaken underbet where we might allow a player to leave an undercall in the pot and fold... the player knew exactly that he had to call 800.

Tossing out a 500 chip in this situation when facing the 800 bet has the same gravity as saying "call". How would you rule here if he said call then later tossed his cards?

The other thing is that this is not simultaneous action (not that it makes alot of difference)... he called first, then he tossed his cards. So he must complete the call he made IMO. The fact that he later mucked his cards is an unfortunate lapse of judgment but it doesn't get him out of his earlier obligation to call a bet amount that he was fully aware of.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 11:15:35 AM by MikeB »

Brian Vickers

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Re: Incomplete call, then regretting
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2011, 12:54:35 PM »
The difference here and in the other thread about misunderstanding the bet amount is that he is facing the minimum bet.  There really can be no argument that he didn't know what the bet was when the minimum bet is 800.  He must make up the difference (+300) and then his hand should be dead.  Your TD and MikeB have it right.

Nick C

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Re: Incomplete call, then regretting
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2011, 01:53:52 PM »
I agree that the player is obligated to the additional 300 but, his cards should be returned to him (if they are 100% identifiable) and he should be allowed to continue playing. I agree with both Mike and Brian because the player in question knew what the minimum bet was. If the dealer immediately killed his hand, like a "knee-jerk reaction," I really don't know about forcing him (without cards) to put in the additional 300. I think loosing the 500 is bad enough. I'm sure many will not agree but that's how I see it.

MikeB

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Re: Incomplete call, then regretting
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2011, 03:06:49 PM »
The reason I wouldn't return his cards, even if 100% identifiable, is that the player voluntarily folded. Once you elect to fold anytime before the showdown, IMO it is binding, whether you do so in turn or out of turn. An interesting question that might bear clarification at the June Summit.

I really see the sequence here as two separate actions:
A: Player calls. He's obligated to make the call good.
B: Then player voluntarily folds his cards and that is a binding fold.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 03:08:00 PM by MikeB »

Brian Vickers

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Re: Incomplete call, then regretting
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2011, 07:27:26 AM »
Until the TDA defines "mucked hand", then you'll have to refer house rules governing what constitutes a mucked hand.  This is one of those things that I wish was universal, as some houses if the dealer touches it it's dead, some houses it has to be in the muck, some houses it's dead if it crosses the line, etc.  (Same thing with what constitutes a legal bet, but that is a subject for another thread ;D)