Author Topic: Illegal raise pre-flop  (Read 8312 times)

thepokertour

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Illegal raise pre-flop
« on: March 22, 2011, 11:07:26 PM »
I have a question regarding tournament play in a Texas Hold'em NL tournament. 

I was the tournament director in a Texas Hold'em NL tournament last weekend.  The blinds were 300-600.  Player A (UTG + 2) moves all-in PRE-FLOP for 700.  Everyone folded except Player B (SB), who calls the 700, and the Player C (BB), who threw in an additional 100 to call the 700 all-in bet by Player A.  I advised both Players B & C that in order for them to call they actually needed to raise it to 1200 (the legal raise at this blind level), therefore making the raise a legal raise for those still in play with more chips behind.

Player B argued that he was not required to raise it to 1200 and that it was 'legal' for him to just call the 700.  Player C pulled back the 100 he had originally tossed in.  Player B continued to argue with me.  I finally made the ruling, however, at this time it was no longer an issue since Player C pulled back his 100 and now it was only heads-up between Players A & B.

Should Player C had continued to stay in the hand (both Players B & C had chips behind) could they have just called the 700 all-in bet, or was I right in that Players B & C had to make it 1200 in order to continue play for further betting rounds?

Nick C

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Re: Illegal raise pre-flop
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2011, 03:15:15 AM »
Welcome thepokertour,
 Both players should have been able to just call the all-in.

Stuart Murray

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Re: Illegal raise pre-flop
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2011, 09:36:54 AM »
hi there,

The rule you were applying should apply only to an under-raise, if the UTG+2 player had moved in for 500 total the SB and BB would still need to play for 600 total (the forced bet) with a sidepot between the two blinds of 200, in the circumstance of your player being all-in for 700 total both players should have been permitted to play for a total of 700, by calling the additional 100.

Don't worry about it, nobody is infallible, we all make mistakes ;-)

Stu

JasperToo

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Re: Illegal raise pre-flop
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2011, 09:41:41 AM »
RROP section 13:2 ....at all other times, when someone goes all-in for less than the minimum bet, a player has the option of just calling the all-in amount...

Player's B & C do NOT have to make it 1200.  Player C should have only continued in the hand if you allowed the flat call by the player B... you changed the rules so player C shouldn't have had to stay.

MikeB

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Re: Illegal raise pre-flop
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2011, 10:34:52 AM »
Tour: thanks for the question, that's a real important issue to clarify. Welcome to the board.

thepokertour

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Re: Illegal raise pre-flop
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2011, 12:55:35 PM »
Thank you all for your clarrification and help.  Let me ask you this:  Is it true that when making a 'legal' raise, one does not have to actually double the entire bet, but only the actual raise amount (example: blinds are 50-100...raise is made to 250. When making a re-raise the minimum total amount would be to 450, not 500, only doubling the raise amount)?  If this is the case when making a legal raise, what about in this situation.  Let's say that Player B is allowed to call the 700 all-in bet from Player A, however, Player C wants to raise, but only the absolute minimum raise amount required.  Since the raise was only to 700, does that mean that Player C can raise to 800 (still not the legal raise to 1200), hence doubling the raise of Player A?  Again, thanks for your assistance, just making sure I get this right the next time

JasperToo

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Re: Illegal raise pre-flop
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2011, 01:26:40 PM »
Thank you all for your clarrification and help.  Let me ask you this:  Is it true that when making a 'legal' raise, one does not have to actually double the entire bet, but only the actual raise amount this statement is true (but your following example is a misapplication)

(example: blinds are 50-100...raise is made to 250. When making a re-raise the minimum total amount would be to 450, not 500, only doubling the raise amount)?  No the amount of the first bet/raise that establishes the current minimum raise is only 150 (250 - 100 for the minimum bet/blind) so the next player that wants to reraise would have to put in the 250 + the new minimum raise of 150 for a total of only 400

If this is the case when making a legal raise, what about in this situation.  Let's say that Player B is allowed to call the 700 all-in bet from Player A, however, Player C wants to raise, but only the absolute minimum raise amount required.  Since the raise was only to 700, does that mean that Player C can raise to 800 (still not the legal raise to 1200), First, be careful with your terms of legal raise.  The all-in of 700 is a legal raise, (but only because it is a short ALL-IN) it is just not a FULL raise.  The all-in of 700 established a new minimum BET but did not change the minimum raise amount which is 600 (the minimum raise amount is established by the blind or initial bet of a round that is not a short all-in) so player c would, after declaring a raise, put in the 100 to match the 700 minimum bet and then 600 more so the total for a legal/full reraise would be 1300 hence doubling the raise of Player A?  Again, thanks for your assistance, just making sure I get this right the next time

This stuff is a little complicated at first.  Just know that there are minimum BET sizes and minimum RAISE sizes and short all-ins can change the first but not the second.

There are some great threads that have worked on this topic recently that would help to read,  this one comes to mind

Nick C

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Re: Illegal raise pre-flop
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2011, 01:34:48 PM »
thepokertour,
 You are entering the most complex part of poker rules right now. To answer your first question both of your answers are wrong. You wrote:
(example: blinds are 50-100...raise is made to 250. When making a re-raise the minimum total amount would be to 450, not 500, only doubling the raise amount)? 
 The answer: If the player raised it to 250 it would be an increase of 150. So...the minimum raise of another 150 would bring the total to 400, right? The next question involves an all-in player with a short raise. The original bet is 600 the all-in goes to 700 (a 100 raise). The next player not all-in wishing to make a minimum raise must go to 1300. 600+100 all-in raise + a full 600=1300.
 There are some jurisdictions that do not use this method but this is the No-Limit raise rule endorsed by the TDA.

Hey Jasper, we finally agreed on something. Nice going. You beat me to this post.

JasperToo

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Re: Illegal raise pre-flop
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2011, 01:58:28 PM »
 ;D

thepokertour

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Re: Illegal raise pre-flop
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2011, 01:59:21 PM »
Thanks folks for the feedback and clarrification.  All your comments really clears up my confusion.  Again, thanks!!!