Author Topic: What to do about protected hands that are mucked by the dealer.  (Read 13860 times)


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Re: What to do about protected hands that are mucked by the dealer.
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2010, 06:10:37 AM »
Final Table of a 60 people tournament. 5 Players remaining UTG moves all in (announces all in and moves his cips forward). Has one chip (it was a 1.000 chip there were 100, 500 and 1000 in play) on his cards. The cards are behind his chips. All fold to the big blind who has about the same amounts. The BB wants a chip count to know if he was covered. The dealer starts to count the chips and also removes the one chip that protected the players cards. After the dealer finish the count he takes UTG no unprotected cards and mucks them. Immediately the BB and UTG tell the dealer but his cards are already lost in the pile.

Before the BB asked for a count UTG showed me his cards because I have been standing behind him for about 10 minutes. Then I left the table and was called again when the hand was mucked. I still remembered his hand (black queens) but I asked him anyway what his hand was. Then I retrieved them from the muck and gave them back to the player. The BB complained that his hand should be dead, and he should protect his hand. I explained that his hand was protected (I could have proved that because we had a camera at that table) and that it was the dealers fault. I also told him, that I had seen the hand before it was mucked and was 100% sure about it.

I think it was not that hard. If I did not know his cards, I would still ask him about them and take the from the muck. If he can not remember both cards including suit then we have a problem. I have seen players only look at one card an push all in.

If the cards can not be determined then we could also return all bets to all players (as we would with an invalid deck) and replay the hand.

We could also rule, that if the dealer can take a players protected hand, that it was not protected well enough. That would probably be the easiest way.



Where is the penalty for showing you his cards!

Nick C

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Re: What to do about protected hands that are mucked by the dealer.
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2010, 06:36:57 AM »
 There are certain rules that we must abide by. Players have to learn to protect their own hand. They do not need to cover their hole cards with chips. They can place one hand on the cards (without covering them) and don't let go until you drop out of the hand or, win the pot.

  The only time a dealer can go into the muck to retrieve a hand is; after it was properly tabled (face-up on the table) and the dealer kills the hand by mistake. If floorperson's and TD's use any other method to dig cards from the muck, they will open up too many thoughts of possible collusion between themselves and certain players. I know that I would have a tough time accepting a floorperson coming over to my table and retrieving an opponents hand from the muck, that costs me the pot.

That's the way I see it
Nick C


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Re: What to do about protected hands that are mucked by the dealer.
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2011, 01:18:17 PM »

I agree with wsopmcgee,  I think the current rule is robust enough as is,  I don't really think we should be hunting the muck pile for cards - otherwise we would supply dealers with discard trays and retrieving mucked hands would be a doddle as they would all be stacked in the correct fold order.

Nowadays everyone accepts the rule very easily and most actually feel stupid with themselves for loosing their hand, one on tuesday this week announced raise at a button deals game then killed her own hand, I was called ruled the hand dead and required her to call any outstanding bet on the table.


I completely agree with Stuart here.

I also think we need clarify the meaning of "protected" on the TDA rules and even put in a "bet not yet called/bet called" provision on the text.

I have one question though: in that video of Estelle Denis, let's say her bet was called bythe player at #1 seat before she had time to complain (c'mon, we've all seen very fas action at tables). Would you rule her being bust out of the tournament? (I would!)

Devanir "D.C." Campos
Brazilian Series of Poker Tournament Director