Author Topic: Player is ALL-In with no cards...  (Read 6741 times)

PokerChip

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Player is ALL-In with no cards...
« on: March 09, 2011, 09:16:58 AM »
So here is the situation: Playing a League tournament with a professional dealer. Player A is UTG and pushes All-in and announces his action. All players fold and right before the Big Blind is about to act, player A announces that the dealer has mucked his cards (which he did). The BB, now knowing that player A's cards are in the muck asks what she should do... she has AQ and said that she was going to call, but the other player has no cards. The BB makes the call.......... now here is the question. Technically, she automaticly wins the pot because player A has no cards; however, there are only 8-10 cards in the muck so... should Player A be allowed to tell an independent TD what his cards were and if they are easily found, take them out of the muck and play his hand? I know it is a players responsibility to protect his cards, but Is there a situation where this would/should be allowed? Thanks for the help!!

Desi

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Re: Player is ALL-In with no cards...
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2011, 09:44:17 AM »
39.   Unprotected Hands
If a dealer kills an unprotected hand, the player will have no redress and will not be entitled to a refund of bets. However, if a player had raised and the raise had not yet been called, the raise will be returned to the player.



Firstly I would not let Player B make the call now knowing Player A has no cards.
Secondly as no one had called the all-in before Player A realised his hand had been mucked, I would take the amount of the BB ( as this is the amount it would have been for Player A to just call ) of Player A stack and return any remaining chips to them. As Player B is now the only player left with a hand they win the pot.


Unless the cards are 100% clearly identifiable and we are sure they Player A cards, Im not going into the muck to look for the hand. But I have heard of this being done ???
If Player A happened to be all-in here for the amount of the bb or less, I would let them play the board in this case.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2011, 09:51:36 AM by Desi »

Stuart Murray

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Re: Player is ALL-In with no cards...
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2011, 10:46:55 AM »
I think this video covers the situation nicely.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlGSXlDB-GA&playnext=1&list=PL832919DDEB978E44

Regards
Stuart

PokerChip

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Re: Player is ALL-In with no cards...
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2011, 10:59:17 AM »
i saw this situation during the WSOP and we talked about it. Just so i am clear...because the All In player was first to act and was not raising above any bet other than the Big Blind, does that mean he would only have to pay the Big Blind and he gets to take his All In bet back? What would have happened if the player in the big Blind said "Call" and THEN it was discovered that the All-in player didnt have any cards?

also, it appeared that they might have given her cards back to her if they were the first 2 cards that the TD pulled out of the muck. Is this in fact the case?

Nick C

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Re: Player is ALL-In with no cards...
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2011, 01:07:50 AM »
 PokerChip,
 I'm with Desi on this one, all the way. Stuart, every time I see that video I'm shocked that the floor would even consider looking at the muck pile the way they did. Can you imagine if they did find two aces and gave the hand back to her? Unthinkable! IMO, there is one exception to the rule, and that is if it were the first hand mucked; therefore being the only two cards in the muck.
 That video is still a different situation because she was calling a bet. That is why she lost her chips. If I understand your question, I would not allow a call and return her bet, just like Desi said. If a player said call, that would be a different story and, unfortunately, the chips would be lost, just like in the video. I guess timing is everything in this situation. The player initiating a bet and the hand is killed before anyone calls, I would return her chips and award the existing pot to the other player or players to decide. If the bet were called before the hand was scooped up by the dealer, all is lost.