Author Topic: using a calculator in a hand  (Read 23349 times)

Stuart Murray

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Re: using a calculator in a hand
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2011, 07:12:43 AM »
So finally we have some solid answers.  Andrew it looks like your girlfriend will be good to use a calculator in around 5 out 7 casinos/cardrooms, based on the feedback from others, in Europe, cardroom Managers will be more than happy to accommodate with the ever powerful European Act on Human Rights and the UK Disability and Equality Act 2010.  Stateside, the ADA governance and ruling of the supreme court of the Casey Martin v PGA Tour does, IN MY OPINION support your girlfriend in using a calculator, and if I was challenged with allowing your girlfriend to use her calculator at my tables, I would cite this supporting information as reasonable grounds to allow the use, whilst it was created in another country, I believe it's reasoning and judgment are solid enough to be used wordwide, and I think a European Court would rule for Casey just the same.

"she just needs help counting up the chips to equal the relevant bet" could be taken in multiple contexts, I chose a different interpretation of that piece of information, which was confirmed by Andrew a posts later in that I said "I think what Andrew is aiming at is that his partner has difficulty through no fault of her own at counting the pot, therefore if she has a calculator she can quickly surmise a rough pot count in order that she bets and raises amounts which are proportional." which was replied to by Andrew "Thank you Stuart, and yes she does have difficulty" which affirmed my interpretation of what he was wishing to convey.

I know one thing, if you speak the the majority of TD's who are reasonable, open and worth their weight they will have no problem letting your girlfriend sit at the table, calculator in hand.  Don't let her be put off playing the game by TD's who are flippant towards her needs, and more so towards legislation designed exactly for these situations.

Regards
Stuart
« Last Edit: February 19, 2011, 07:20:58 AM by Stuart Murray »

chet

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Re: using a calculator in a hand
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2011, 08:23:54 AM »
And my FINAL ANSWER to this question is as follows:

Andrew:  If your girlfriend wants to play and a TD, Cardroom/Casino refuses to consider any accommodation for her, she should then leave the poker room and shift to the favorite American Passtime.  SUE THE BASTARDS!!!  She will make a LOT more money with a LOT less work.  There will be any number of high powered attorneys/barristers willing to accept her case on a contingency basis.  Of course, we certainly hope this doesn't come to pass.

MaxH

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Re: using a calculator in a hand
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2011, 08:49:30 AM »
The key here - as several people have pointed out - is how reasonable it is. For what it's worth, provided that the calculator is used only to allow the chips to be counted, I would allow it in my games; however, if this created a consistent slowing down of play at one table of a multi-tabled tournament I may well rule differently.
Dyscalculia symptoms - as defined by Wikipedia - include:
Frequent difficulties with arithmetic, confusing the signs: +, −, and .
Often unable to grasp and remember mathematical concepts, rules, formulae, and sequences
An inability to read a sequence of numbers, or transposing them when repeated, such as turning 56 into 65
May have trouble even with a calculator due to difficulties in the process of feeding in variables.

As politically incorrect as it may seem my response to the request would be: 'Of course she can use a calculator provided that it does not interfere with the smooth running of the game'.


Max

W0lfster

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Re: using a calculator in a hand
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2011, 12:31:00 PM »
Thank you so much for the replies everyone! I agree with Stuart to not allow is pretty much ludacris as it is a breach of Human Rights and is an act of discrimination which I take no tolerance to. I agree Chet Sue the lot! haha, thanks again :)

Dave Lamb

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Re: using a calculator in a hand
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2011, 03:23:52 PM »
Never say never!

I would never make a rule that says players may use calculators as a normal policy. I would never close my thinking to the point of say that I would never allow a calculator, show me the special circumstances...

If I write anymore replies that create as much confusion about what I am saying as this one thread, just pull my TDA license and censure me from further posting.  :-X

Nick C

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Re: using a calculator in a hand
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2011, 04:31:48 PM »
Dave,
 That could be the worst thing to happen to poker and the TDA. We all have differing opinions but no one is respected more than you. The calculator question was one that I actually criticized because I thought that there would be no response....so what do I know? It is something that will probably not happen in any cardroom that you work in. We really need more of your input. I have corresponded with you on other poker related issues (via email) and I will always remember, and value, the advice that you gave me. There are over 1200 members in the TDA, we have heard responses from  less than 2%, so if we had more participation your opinion could be the overwelming concensus. Not allowing a calculator is way down on the list of priorities for a TD.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2011, 05:21:49 PM by Nick C »

WSOPMcGee

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Re: using a calculator in a hand
« Reply #36 on: March 01, 2011, 05:26:00 PM »
I really didn't want to post in this thread again because some people, apparently, do not listen to reason. And it appears that, no matter how much common sense is used to justify a point of view, may people still look for any excuse to rationalize their position.

With regard to Casey Martin, and his effort to use a cart in the PGA, it was ruled that the use of the cart is a "reasonable accommodation" that allowed him to compete in the sport of golf, and that walking the course is not a fundamental aspect of the game.

When wsopmcgee said:
Quote
The fundamentals are: Use of 52 card deck, hand rankings, betting action, number of players per table, etc

he overlooked the facts that poker is not as simple as the use of 52 card deck, hand rankings, betting action, and the number of players per table. He also said "etc," which means "and other things." Other things that are fundamental aspects of poker include the ability to calculate the possibilities of possible hands existing based on the given board at any time, calculate pot odds in which the chance that a potential hand will be achieved compared to an amount to call a bet divided by the current pot, the ability to calculate of the size of the pot, at any point in a given hand, while considering other factors of the game, etc.
I too didn't feel the need to post here again..... but.... too clarify. No I didn't forget any facts. No  etc does not mean "and other things" as you describe. Fundamentals do not mean, the ability for someone to calculate possible hands or pot odds. Those are skills. Not fundamentals. Fundamentals are the strict requirements (rules) of what makes a card game. The fundamentals of poker are: a 52 card deck (sometimes 53 with a joker), specific hand rankings, defined betting action, order of the betting action, order of the deal, number players allowed, direction of the button, which players are the blinds, number of cards per player, number of board cards, eliminations, re-entries, rebuys..... I'd put etc here somewhere, but someone might elaborate..... ok etc. Those are fundamentals. If you change any one of those things for any player, then it's a different game and therefore, you have changed the fundamentals in the eyes of the court. Giving someone a calculator doesn't do that. Even if you think that it does, the individual still has to press the correct buttons to calculate the correct odds and there's no guarantee that they could even do it correctly.

I'm spent ;)
@wsopmcgee on Twitter

chet

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Re: using a calculator in a hand
« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2011, 06:34:34 PM »
Mr. Dave Lamb:

I will agree that your TDA license should be pulled and you should be censored for posting your thoughts, just as soon as Hell freezes over for the third time!!!

Chet

chet

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Re: using a calculator in a hand
« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2011, 06:38:05 PM »
Mr. Mcgee:  I may have a hard time sometimes getting my feeble remaining brain cells to fully understand what you are saying, but SIR, you keep on keepin' on.  I will worry about my comprehension problems, you keep givin' me somethin' to comprehend!

Chet