Showdown- face-down to face-up again

[Desi]

Im hoping someone can give me some feedback on the two rulings I made recently.

Situation 1 - On the river Player A bets and Player B calls. Player A pushes his hand face-down over the line, releases them, but then quickly turns them face-up. Player B still has not shown his hand.
For me this hand is clearly live, Player A had King high, I guess he had second thoughts on showing it. But the hand was turned face-up by himself before the dealer took it and also before Player B showed his hand.

The next one is slightly trickier

Situation 2 - Two players go to a showdown, Player A shows his hand which is AK for ace high. Player B throws his hand face down towards the dealer and they cross over the board cards, but do not touch the muck. Player B then realises he had the winning hand and asks the dealer to turn his hand face-up, at this point Iam called to the table and some players are claiming Player B has folded his hand. The dealer explains what has happened so far. I ask the dealer where Player B cards are, she tells me they are still under her hand ( between the board cards and the muck) I then ask if Player B hand touched the muck? Dealer said no they haven't. I asked was she 100% sure they were his cards, dealer said they were 100% sure, the players also agreed they were deffinetly Player B cards. The dealer also told me they didnt have time to even put them in the muck, as it all happened so fast, when the dealer put their hand on Player B cards to pull them into the muck Player B asked for them to be shown.
As the pot had not been awarded, Player B hand had not been mucked or touched the muck, and Player A had shown first, this was just a case of misreading of hands, I ruled the hand live and turned it face-up, to show the winning hand.

Thanks,
Desi

[MikeB]

Desi:
In both cases a Player has pushed their hand forward face down, and the appropriate action (unless a player is all-in) is for the dealer to accept the capitulation and move those cards face down towards the muck. This was clearly agreed to on day two of the 2009 TDA Summit....

However, until the face-down hand has been formally killed per house standards, the cards are still retrievable by the player. In your two examples the player changes his mind and it's just a question of where the cards become irretrievably mucked at that point.

Unless your house has a specific rule regarding a "betting line" over which cards may not cross at showdown, then in both cases I would rule the hands live. They are 100% identifiable, the term or gesture of "fold" has no meaning at showdown, and cards can be tabled by the player at any time until they are killed per the rule of the house. If the house standard is cards must be buried in the muck, then that's the standard; if touch the muck then that's the standard; if over a line, then that's the standard... Keep in mind these are for non all-in hands. Once a player is all-in and all betting action has been finalized, hands should be turned up for showdown.

This is an issue I'd personally like to see reviewed for further clarification at the next TDA Summit to see if any progress can be made towards standardization of when a face-down muck-gesture at showdown becomes irretrievable.  Thanks alot for raising an important question.

[Nick C]

Desi,
 I agree with Mike that you made the right call in both situations. Situation 1 is just a case of the player being lucky that he beat the dealer to the cards. The hand is live until it "hits" the muck.
 You are correct when you say that situation 2 is "trickier." If the cards did not hit the muck, they are live. One of the problems that I have with your situation is your dealer. Her reaction to instantly muck the hand was too slow. In my opinion there is no option if they even touch the muck, they are dead. I am not in favor of all of the rules that apply to tournaments at the showdown but, that is the way they are currently written. I guarantee if the player said; "I'm out" or "fold" while tossing the cards face down toward the muck, you might not feel as comfortable about your ruling.
 Mike specifically points out that tournament showdown rules are different from cash games. I agree. I do feel that a firm rule should be considered where the dealer would be forced to show all cards at the showdown, if that is what they want. I have always been against that, and I always will. I train dealers to kill any hand that is tossed, or pushed face down in the direction of the muck. The dealer was slow to react and that is where the problem began, in both situations.

[Stuart Murray]

Hi Desi

I agree with Mick and Nick, both situations IMO you made the correct call, and your technical reasoning for both was sound.

As per Mick's post there is no such thing as 'folding' when at showdown, all hands are at showdown, it's only a question of whether you allow players to muck their hand. After that it a question of whether the hand is in the muck yet or not.

Just watch out for the player making a 'forward motion' causing another player to act, which dirties the water.

Regards
Stuart

[Desi]

Thanks for the replies guys.

[Nick C]

Desi,
 After looking over your question I'd like to point out that in situation #1 you mentioned  the players were on the river, and in situation #2 you said that they were at the showdown. Your question was well written and clearly understood. I assumed that there were only two players in the hand in the first question, and they were at the showdown. I thought that this would be worth mentioning because of what Stuart pointed out; "Just watch out for the player making a 'forward motion' causing another player to act, which dirties the water." This would have to be during the course of betting. If a player called because the player to his right folded (or at least he thought he did), only to discover that the player retrieved his cards and called. My question is; would a TD allow the non-offending player (that put his chips out to call), the right to withdraw his bet? Or change it to a raise?

[Desi]

Sorry Nick, in both cases all betting action had been complete and all left to do was for the players to show their hands.

[Nick C]

Desi,
 No apology required. We need more thought provoking questions just like the ones you submitted. They are situations that TD's are confronted with every day, and they were very well written. Thanks for participating in the Forum.