Author Topic: Poker Rules compilation  (Read 19677 times)

WSOPMcGee

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Poker Rules compilation
« on: February 04, 2011, 09:22:19 PM »
Hello All,

I took it upon myself last year to gather up all the resources I could and put together a poker rules book covering as many rules and procedures as I could regarding poker. More specifically rules and procedures for poker tournaments. Working as part of the staff for the WSOP, WPT, and EPT I've come across many different procedures and distinctive rules that separate the poker community. Sometimes even dividing them. Like many of you, the quest for finding the meaning to the rules and how they were derived is often met with limited resources in full print. Much of the material I gathered is directly from individual poker room rule books. Information no room is willingly ready to hand over, even though it is required that they show it to you upon request. It was this desire that led me to write a complete tournament rule book. Literature for future TD's and players who want to partake in the poker tournament industry.

You will see some familiar material. In speaking with the TDA founders (Mostly Matt Savage and Dave Lamb, briefly with Jan Fisher and Linda Johnson) and Bob Ciaffone (creator of RRoP) about my venture, they gave the O.K. to include their works.

The work is called The R.O.P.E. - The Rules of Poker and Etiquette

You can view it no charge by clicking on the link. It is also available in eBook form via some bookstore sites.

Feel free to comment. Any feedback would be great, as we all strive to have a more uniform poker community.

Cheers!
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 12:01:53 AM by wsopmcgee »
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DCJ001

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Re: Poker Rules compilation
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2011, 10:08:43 AM »
Your link to the ROPE does not work. This one is correct:

http://www.pokertps.com/therope.ebook.php

WSOPMcGee

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Re: Poker Rules compilation
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2011, 11:45:16 AM »
Your link to the ROPE does not work. This one is correct:

http://www.pokertps.com/therope.ebook.php
Fixed. Thanks DCJ001. Had an extra http:// in there for some reason.
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chet

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Re: Poker Rules compilation
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2011, 08:56:22 PM »
the link in your original post still does not work.  I suggest you remove the 'http:\\' and then enter just 'www.pokertps.com/therope.ebook.php' (w/o the single quote marks) and click on the 'enter hyperlink' icon above. 

WSOPMcGee

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Re: Poker Rules compilation
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2011, 12:02:39 AM »
That was weird. Ok Fixed!
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Nick C

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Re: Poker Rules compilation
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2011, 06:26:46 AM »
wsopmcgee,
 There's some good new proposals and I like the way it is written. The examples are also helpful.

Nick C

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Re: Poker Rules compilation
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2011, 05:00:19 AM »
wsopmcgee,
 I've been going over the rules of poker and etiquette (R.O.P.E.) and There are some rulings that I'd like to discuss with you. I also noticed that several of the rulemakers that are mentioned are familiar aquaintances of mine. I really like the idea of increasing the 50% rule as is suggested. There's more that I'd like to go over with you, and I think this is a good way to get some feedback.

WSOPMcGee

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Re: Poker Rules compilation
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2011, 12:02:44 PM »
wsopmcgee,
 There's some good new proposals and I like the way it is written. The examples are also helpful.

Thanks Nick.

Fire away with anything you'd like to discuss. The 50% rule is probably so widely in use it would be difficult to change. But really all it needs is a small rewrite with the addition of the words "More than" 50%. As posed in the example, I feel it's not our job as tournament officials to force people to raise when they had no intention of doing so, and as such have either opened themselves up to a raise, or inadvertently re-opened the betting. Moreover, I couldn't tell you the number of times that I've seen chips get stuck together, or someone thinks they are grabbing two chips and end up grabbing three and putting those into the pot.

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Nick C

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Re: Poker Rules compilation
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2011, 01:54:50 PM »
 I also like it because it could separate the confusion of the 50% rule that applies to ALL-IN players in LIMIT GAMES ONLY. Your proposed over 50% rule would be a good way to clear it up. The difference is, the Over 50% rule applies in all forms of poker; Example Player a bets 50 Player B puts 70 in the pot (a 40% increase), that bettor will get his extra 20 back and he can only call. If Player A bets 50 and Player B puts 75 in the pot (exactly 50% increase) that would also be considered a call, and the extra 25 would be returned to the bettor. If Player A bets 50 and Player B puts 76 or more (up to 99), they must complete it to a full raise of 100. They can not retract their oversized accidental raise.

The single oversized chip will still be a call without the declaration of a raise.

It does offer more protection to the bettor who unintentionally grabs an extra chip by mistake and tosses it into the pot.

I hope I've explained it correctly.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 08:10:48 PM by Nick C »

MikeB

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Re: Poker Rules compilation
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2011, 10:49:45 PM »
W: Nice work!

I'd like to see a lowball section under game rules.

WSOPMcGee

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Re: Poker Rules compilation
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2011, 03:33:40 PM »
W: Nice work!

I'd like to see a lowball section under game rules.

Thanks MikeB.

There is a lowball section. All major game forms are covered. The way the links are designed on the menu tree, you have to click the Game Rules ---> (sub menus) ---> Draw ---> (sub menus) ---> Lowball
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Nick C

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Re: Poker Rules compilation
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2011, 05:27:33 PM »
Thomas,
 I looked over some of the rulings and I am a little confused on a couple;
 

I question this one.


If the dealer fails to burn a card or burns more than one card, the error should be corrected if discovered before betting action has started for that round. Once action has been taken on a boardcard by any player, the card must stand. Whether the error is able to be corrected or not, subsequent cards dealt should be those that would have come if no error had occurred. For example, if two cards were burned, one of the cards should be put back on the deck and used for the burncard on the next round. If there was no betting on a round because a player was all-in, the error should be corrected if discovered before the pot has been awarded.

 All raises must be equal to or greater than the size of the previous bet or raise on that betting round, except for an all-in wager. Example: Player A bets 100 and player B raises to 200. Player C wishing to raise must raise at least 100 more, making the total bet at least 300. A player who has already acted and is not facing a full raise may not re-raise. They may only call or fold. The half-bet rule only applies to limit games only. The betting is not reopened should an all-in bet be less than the minimum bet or less than a full raise.

WSOPMcGee

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Re: Poker Rules compilation
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2011, 01:32:30 AM »
Thomas,
 I looked over some of the rulings and I am a little confused on a couple;
 

I question this one.


If the dealer fails to burn a card or burns more than one card, the error should be corrected if discovered before betting action has started for that round. Once action has been taken on a boardcard by any player, the card must stand. Whether the error is able to be corrected or not, subsequent cards dealt should be those that would have come if no error had occurred. For example, if two cards were burned, one of the cards should be put back on the deck and used for the burncard on the next round. If there was no betting on a round because a player was all-in, the error should be corrected if discovered before the pot has been awarded.
These are two separate procedures so I'll address this one first.

This is straight from RRoP.

From one Vegas cardroom reference: If a Dealer burns two cards or fails to burn a card, the Dealer shall immediately notify a Supervisor who shall correctly position the cards to rectify the error if possible.  If the Supervisor cannot correctly position the cards, then all cards shall be played as they were originally dealt.

I can't find my other references at the moment, but similar.

The example is saying this: If the cards are labeled A (burn) B, C, D, (flop) E (burn), F (turn), G (burn), H (river) and the dealer accidentally burns twice or not at all, and action takes place, then action stands and the card error stands. If no action takes place, then the error should be corrected and the proper card placed. In cases where the error can not be corrected because of action or it is not determinable which card is the correct card, then the card in error stands, but an effort will be made to make sure that proper card for future bets is the correct card.

Example A: No burn and the flop is A, B, C with no action taking place. If the error is caught, the simple correction is burn card A and add Card D to the flop. If card A is undetermined, then action continues on the board cards. Then there would be a double burn to get to the correct turn card (burning card D and card E, in order to reach card F). However, you could also use the 4 card flop rule here by adding card D and scramble the 4 cards, picking one for the burn and using the remaining 3 as the board, which achieves the same but at least gives the board a chance to be the absolute correct board. Remember this rule was written LONG before the 4 card rule was instituted.

Example B: No burn and the flop is A, B, C with action. This time because there is action the board will stand. As in example A, we'll have to burn two cards (card D and card E) to reach the proper turn (card F).

Example C: Two burns and the flop is C, D, E with no action. Generally with two burns,  cards A and B are most likely indeterminable, as is card E. If the error is correctable then proceed. But more often you'll have objectionable players with 3 cards out of proper order. You can't use the 4 card rule with 5 cards. Therefore, it is best to play with the cards as dealt C, D, E and use Card A or Card B as the second burn, leaving card F as the proper turn, and so forth.

Hopefully those flop examples will help also with any turn/river questions.
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WSOPMcGee

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Re: Poker Rules compilation
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2011, 01:33:01 AM »
Quote
All raises must be equal to or greater than the size of the previous bet or raise on that betting round, except for an all-in wager. Example: Player A bets 100 and player B raises to 200. Player C wishing to raise must raise at least 100 more, making the total bet at least 300. A player who has already acted and is not facing a full raise may not re-raise. They may only call or fold. The half-bet rule only applies to limit games only. The betting is not reopened should an all-in bet be less than the minimum bet or less than a full raise.

In the example, Player A bets 100. In order to raise, Player B must raise an amount equal to the size of the previous bet (100) or greater. In order for Player C to raise, they must raise an amount equal to the size of the previous raise of Player B (100) or greater. Player A who has already acted, may not raise unless they are facing a full raise. In the example, Player A is facing a full raise from Player B and from Player C. Otherwise if Player A was not facing a full raise from any player or multiple bets adding to a full raise, they would only be allowed to call or fold.

Example A: Player A bets 100, Player B goes all-in for 150, Player C calls 150. In limit poker, the half bet rule would allow Player A to raise. In No Limit poker the half bet rule does not apply and Player A may only call because he has already acted.

The betting is not reopened should an all-in bet be less than the minimum bet or less than a full raise.
This portion of the rule is also referring to the next example.

Example B: Blinds are 50-100. Player A checks, Player B goes all-in for 75 (minimum bet is 100), Player C calls. Player A may not raise (check-raise). Player A has already acted and is not facing the minimum bet.

All too often novice and experienced players alike get confused with what determines the minimum amount they can raise and what is the minimum amount that will re-open the betting. Poker terminology is often interchangeable like the English language, yet has different meanings. Often the minimum raise is described by stating that you must double the bet. Meaning if a bet is 100, then to raise you must make it 200. But from there it gets confused, because now the bet is 200. According to the description, you raise by "doubling the bet". Some people are mistaken that they must double the bet of 200 to 400, which is untrue. You must double the initial bet of 100 yes, which also happens to be an amount equal to the previous bet. But thereafter, in order to raise, all you must do is raise an amount equal to the amount of the previous raise. That's why the rule is phrased as "All raises must be equal to or greater than the size of the previous bet or raise on that betting round". You must raise the amount of the raise. Not raise the amount of the bet.

Hope that makes sense.
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Nick C

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Re: Poker Rules compilation
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2011, 01:14:01 PM »
Thomas, This is from a prior post but, it better explains how I feel about the way the rule is written:
I want to know if you can explain this part of RR:  "if two cards were burned, one of the cards should be put back on the deck and used for the burncard on the next round." The way I see it, if the dealer burns two cards instead of one after the flop, there is no way that the turn card can play. The only certainty would be for the improper turn card to be returned to the deck and used as the final burn before the river. Why wouldn't we choose one of the improper burns as the turn?
 How do you correct two burn cards (three including the correct burn before the flop), and a turn card on the board, with certainty, when noticed before action takes place? One of those cards should be the proper burn and the other the turn, correct? What happens to the exposed turn card?
 I would scramble the two burns, and use one as a burn and the other as the turn card. I would then use the exposed turn card as the final burn (which is where it belonged if no error had occured). The exposed turn card would be placed back on top of the deck, covering the proper river card. After the betting round, the burn would be placed on the board (face down with the other burns) and the proper river card would be dealt. The way I explained it is the easiest way and I think the best way to guarantee at least 80% of the proper board, and very possibly 100%. There is no reshuffle required. The bad part is one card was exposed.

 The ruling that explains what the minimum bet is to a player on a given round is where the confusion comes in. I understand the rule, but I think it should more clear so new players understand it. All raises must be equal to or greater than the size of the previous bet or raise on that betting round is too unclear. I think we can find a better way to word it.

« Last Edit: February 19, 2011, 01:23:22 PM by Nick C »