Author Topic: Raising /all in before cards are dealt?  (Read 15238 times)

DCJ001

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Re: Raising /all in before cards are dealt?
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2011, 10:28:54 PM »
What is important, in my opinion, is that consistent decisions are made.  It is just unacceptable to me that floor persons in the same house will take identical situations and make different rulings.  I can accept different rulings from one house to another, but NEVER within the same house. 
Chet.

When you say that you like to make exceptions for new players, but apply the rules strictly with experienced players, you are speaking in contradiction to the fundamental ideal that you have stated in the end of your post that consistent application of the rules is paramount. It's my opinion that, when consistency is lost, credibility and respect are lost for those in supervisory capacities.

It's also my opinion that, when new players pay their entry fees for tournaments or buy into cash games, they have the responsibility of understanding and playing by the rules. If new players make mistakes, the rules should be applied correctly and consistently. And, if new player's don't learn from their mistakes, they have the option of learning at some point or quitting due to losing or frustration.

You also said that you expect consistency within the same room. But if the room's entire staff is advised to make a one time exception for new player's, and a new player makes the same mistake three times with three different dealers that is ruled upon  by three different floor people who each make an exception to the rules as a one time courtesy, there's a problem.

You seem to understand some important principles, but you appear to be conflicted in your approach, in my opinion.

chet

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Re: Raising /all in before cards are dealt?
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2011, 09:18:03 AM »
DCJ001:  I respectfully disagree.  My desire to make an exception is to have a "vehicle" for educating a new player while at the same time doing as much as I can to keep that player an active participant in my house.  I don't see it much different than having two identical instances of a player showing cards to their neighbor where in one instance the player is totally inexperienced in the tournament/casino environment and in the second the player is well known and very experienced.  In the first case, I would be inclined to give a warning or maybe at best a one hand penalty while I explained the rules.  In the second case there is no way I would give any thing less than a one round penalty.

I see our job as a TD to include at least two areas, one to ensure each and every participant feels comfortable that the event is being run on the up and up, and two to do all I can to bring new players into the 'fold', ie., ensuring they have a pleasant experience and want to come back again.

If I need to invoke TDA Rule #1 to ensure the latter from time to time, so be it.

As to your example of three instances of exceptions to a rule for the same player.  I think there must be a communication problem within that room.  I would expect that ANY Floor that makes an exception for a player to ensure that the persons following albeit a dealer, floor or whomever, know that an exception was make for "X".  Good communication and record keeping should minimize, if not eliminate that problem.  Communication was exactly the reason that the WSOP went to electronic recordkeeping for rules violations a couple of years back.  It eliminates this problem.  Any dealer, floor or for that matter player knows who the individuals are that tend to 'bend the rules' regularly.  They get NO room from me.


Nick C

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Re: Raising /all in before cards are dealt?
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2011, 04:34:22 PM »
DCJ,
 I will quote one of your earlier posts on this topic:
"The potential problem is in the case of a misdeal or if the player who is first to act who pushes all in preflop without having been dealt cards distracts the dealer by doing so, causing this player to be dealt only one card, and when the next player calls, binding the first player's action, what does he do then?"

 I don't know how that distracts the dealer. If any player is short a card it would almost never be a player UTG. The most probable will be the last card dealt before the burn and flop, which is the button's second card. This is usually not a problem because the button will draw attention to it before play resumes. If some strange event occurs, where the button continues play without realizing that he is short one card, then he has to suffer the consiquences. All of the board cards would be altered and it would be too late to call for a misdeal. My question is; would this player be allowed to participate and compete for the pot, one card short? Does anyone think that he should be given a second card? I understand that a player looking at one card and continuing to play without looking at his second hole card could be in trouble if he discovers the other card to be a joker. Yikes! Would you kill his hand even if he realized his mistake, but still wanted to compete?

 I know these are unusual situations but, it's always good to play them out like this so we can prepare ourselves when they occur.

 

 

JasperToo

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Re: Raising /all in before cards are dealt?
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2011, 08:13:51 PM »
Nick,

I agree with you that the situation DCJ outlines would unlikely result in the UTG player not receiving his second card but I have seen it happen.  Sadly, I have to say that he would be responsible and it would not be declared a misdeal but rather that his hand would be dead.  Which is what I think DCJ was talking about, perhaps we shouldn't allow betting in the dark preflop which is currently legal.

And as to your question, if the button player didn't notice he had one card before the flop I think he could call attention to it before the action gets too far, say if he says something as the second player is taking action, and get his second card.  If the flop is out and he discovers it then that is just a bummer, he needs to pay attention.  Hopefully, he notices it before he has to put money in the pot preflop and just discard his "hand".  But anyway you look at it the rules say it's a dead hand and he is responsible for the consequences.  No player that has a single card and knows it can compete for a pot in holdem.  And if he competes for a pot without two cards he won't win at the end either.

Nick C

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Re: Raising /all in before cards are dealt?
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2011, 08:24:42 AM »
Jasper,
 I will quote you:
 "No player that has a single card and knows it can compete for a pot in holdem.  And if he competes for a pot without two cards he won't win at the end either." So show me the rule, or write it like that. No problem.
 

JasperToo

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Re: Raising /all in before cards are dealt?
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2011, 10:07:17 AM »
RROP 3:3.1d

Dead Hands
1. Your hand is declared dead if:
   a.
   b.
   c.
   d. the hand does not contain the proper number of cards cards for that particular game.