Author Topic: Raising /all in before cards are dealt?  (Read 15239 times)

W0lfster

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Raising /all in before cards are dealt?
« on: January 24, 2011, 06:51:18 AM »
Playing a tournament down my local pub, I was told that you can call, raise or go all in before the cards are even dealt providing its in betting order. A player said, the UTG is the first person that can do this, no other player can cos its out of betting order. He then said the player directly to the left can do this also providing the UTG has done this first and it can carry on until for as long as the players want providing its in betting order.

Any thoughts?

Thanks
Andy.  :)

JasperToo

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Re: Raising /all in before cards are dealt?
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2011, 08:46:48 AM »
true enough...as long as it is all in betting order...but unless your sitting in on an absolute donkfest or perhaps say two or three super short stacks sitting in a row there would just be no reason to ever do it.

If the conversation was just about what's within the rules then ok, it is.

Nick C

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Re: Raising /all in before cards are dealt?
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2011, 08:59:17 AM »
Andy,
 You say that this is a tournament. We could use a little more information. I will assume that it is no limit hold'em. Any UTG player, pre-flop, can raise before he gets his cards. It is not live, meaning that if no other player raises, the betting for that round will stop at the BB. What you describe is a "blind raise." If players continue to raise blind, raising may continue until they run out of chips or a raise limit, or cap is met first.

Luca P.

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Re: Raising /all in before cards are dealt?
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2011, 02:37:51 AM »
well I'm not that confortable with this situation.
I mean, when cards are dealt I allow players to raise/all-in without having seen the cards.
When only one card has been dealt (deaer is still giving the second card) or the dealer is still shuffling I don't consider speech binding.
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DCJ001

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Re: Raising /all in before cards are dealt?
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2011, 08:56:49 AM »
well I'm not that confortable with this situation.
I mean, when cards are dealt I allow players to raise/all-in without having seen the cards.
When only one card has been dealt (deaer is still giving the second card) or the dealer is still shuffling I don't consider speech binding.

Some players like to "check in the dark" or "bet in the dark," which is acting on a hand when it is a player's turn before the flop, turn, or river card is dealt.

Calling or raising in the dark, preflop, is a similar concept.

The potential problem is in the case of a misdeal or if the player who is first to act who pushes all in preflop without having been dealt cards distracts the dealer by doing so, causing this player to be dealt only one card, and when the next player calls, binding the first player's action, what does he do then?

Nick C

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Re: Raising /all in before cards are dealt?
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2011, 11:35:29 AM »
When a dealer skips a player, it is usually the button. The proper procedure would be to give that player a card off the top of the deck. This would be his "proper card." If for some strange reason, the dealer proceeded to burn and put the flop out, before it was discovered that the player was not dealt a second card, then a decision would have to be made. This becomes interesting because the incorrect cards would be on the flop (one card different), and I'm not certain that the player with only one card would be disqualified from play.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 05:34:19 PM by Nick C »

chet

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Re: Raising /all in before cards are dealt?
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2011, 12:06:59 PM »
Nick:  I believe that once the flop has been laid, it is too late for any player to complain about the number of cards.  Isn't it up to the player to ascertain the accuracy of their hole cards before there is any substantial action?  From RRoP, V.11, C 3, Sub 2:

MISDEALS
1.   Once action begins, a misdeal cannot be called. The deal will be played, and no money will be returned to any player whose hand is fouled. In button games, action is considered to occur when two players after the blinds have acted on their hands. In stud games, action is considered to occur when two players after the forced bet have acted on their hands.
2.   The following circumstances cause a misdeal, provided attention is called to the error before two players have acted on their hands.
(a)   The first or second card of the hand has been exposed by a dealer error.
(b)   Two or more cards have been exposed by the dealer.
(c)   Two or more boxed cards (improperly faced cards) are found.
(d)   Two or more extra cards have been dealt in the starting hands of a game.
(e)   An incorrect number of cards has been dealt to a player, except the top card may be dealt if it goes to the player in proper sequence.

Based on the above, the resolution depends upon whether there has been 'substantial action', which RRoP appears to define as "two players have acted on their hands."  In my opinion, if 'substantial action' has not occurred, it is a misdeal (this would have to be PRE-FLOP) unless the card(s) to subsequent players have not been looked at and can be backed up.  If there has been 'substantial action', the hand of the player with the incorrect number of hole cards is dead and play continues.

Hope this helps!

Nick C

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Re: Raising /all in before cards are dealt?
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2011, 02:04:50 PM »
Chet,
 I agree with most of what is written regarding the misdeals. I do have a problem with the wording. Why don't they specifically say less cards. They don't. It is just another vague ruling. I'm not so sure that a player can be eliminated with one hole card. As far as substantial action, if the dealer burns and turns the flop, that's enough for me. I know that you are referring to aPre-flop. I guess my question would be; If there were substantial action, could the player with only one card play if he wanted to?

chet

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Re: Raising /all in before cards are dealt?
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2011, 04:35:02 PM »
Nick:  What is the difference if a player is dealt too many or too few?  The result is the same that player has an incorrect number of hole cards and any players following also have hole cards different from what they would have had if not for the error.  The player is responsible for making sure the hole cards are correct.  What would you do if all the players have the correct number of cards, but during the course of the hand one of a players hole cards turns out to be a joker or some other card that may be included with a new deck, but not one of the 52 correct cards (calendar or whatever)?

As to making it voluntary whether a player with only one hole card wants to continue playing, that is already covered in RRoPv.10, C 3, Sub 3.3: 

'DEAD HANDS
1.   Your hand is declared dead if:
(a) You fold or announce that you are folding when facing a bet or a raise.
(b) You throw your hand away in a forward motion causing another player to act behind you (even if not facing a bet).
 (c) In stud, when facing a bet, you pick your upcards off the table, turn your upcards facedown, or mix your upcards and downcards together.
 (d) The hand does not contain the proper number of cards for that particular game (except at stud a hand missing the final card may be ruled live, and at lowball and draw high a hand with too few cards before the draw is live). [See Section 16 - “Explanations,” discussion #4, for more information on the stud portion of this rule.]

Nick C

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Re: Raising /all in before cards are dealt?
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2011, 07:07:25 AM »
Chet,
 The rules that you've listed only confirm the possibility of a hand, one card short, still competing for the pot. The player holding too many cards, has a dead hand. Period. There is a huge advantage to having an extra card. I also like what you wrote about making the choice voluntary, to the player one card short.
 If a player on the BB were dealt in, and three players called before anyone noticed the BB only had one card, how would you handle the situation? Would you give the BB the top card off the deck? Would you give him his BB back? Would you kill his hand and blame him for not speaking soon enough? Would you call for a misdeal? What if the player wants to compete with only one card?

chet

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Re: Raising /all in before cards are dealt?
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2011, 09:31:52 AM »
My ruling, based on what I have previously quoted from RRoP, is that the Big Blind's hand would be DEAD!!  No if's, and's or but's.

My last quote from RRoP addresses the thought of letting the player with only one card voluntarily continue in the hand, since that players hand has an incorrect number of cards it is DEAD.

RRoP is very clear, in my opinion, EACH individual player is responsible for ensuring he has the correct number of hole cards AND that those cards are valid (no joker, calendar or whatever).  Failure to do so before substantial action has occurred makes that hand DEAD.

Sorry if this appears to you to be too harsh, but if you are not going to enforce simple rules why bother having those rules. 

Nick C

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Re: Raising /all in before cards are dealt?
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2011, 09:57:14 AM »
Chet,
 I'm not disagreeing with all that you say. I am offering some situations that could be handled differently. I don't want to get too far off the initial question but, how would you handle this. At the showdown, the initial bettor has a card accidently scooped into the muck by the dealer. The board reads Ks 9s 5s 2s 4c. The player with one card is holding the Ace of spades. What is your ruling?

DCJ001

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Re: Raising /all in before cards are dealt?
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2011, 03:45:18 PM »
Chet,
 I'm not disagreeing with all that you say. I am offering some situations that could be handled differently. I don't want to get too far off the initial question but, how would you handle this. At the showdown, the initial bettor has a card accidently scooped into the muck by the dealer. The board reads Ks 9s 5s 2s 4c. The player with one card is holding the Ace of spades. What is your ruling?

The player didn't protect his hand, all hole cards are necessary to have a hand at showdown, player with one hole card loses the hand.

Hopefully, this player will learn from the experience and always protect his hand in the future.

In my first poker tournament as a player, sitting in the one seat, the dealer recommended that I protect my hand because she almost mucked my hand. fifteen minutes later, she accidentally mucked my hand. Since then, I have never played a hand without a silver dollar as a card protector.

Nick C

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Re: Raising /all in before cards are dealt?
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2011, 04:26:41 PM »
DCJ,
 I can understand that rule. Write it like that. Why then, have TD's tried to dig hands from the muck, or worse yet, asked the player what their cards were so they could confirm that they were the correct cards and allow them to continue. It's simple, just tell the players that having only one hole card disqualifies you from competing for that pot. Some poker games allow players to compete with less cards. We initially started talking about a blind raise. What about the BB, it's not a raise but it is blind? If one of the blinds discovers that they only have one card after two people have called, should their hand be dead?

chet

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Re: Raising /all in before cards are dealt?
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2011, 08:44:02 PM »
Nick:  Sorry for the delay, but I was playing most of the day and not at home. 

1.  The player did not protect his hand, that said, if this was a new player and inexperienced, I would try to retrieve his "lost" card.  To do that he would have to tell me what the missing card was both in terms of value and suit and I would have to find that missing card in the muck.  One chance only.  If this was an experienced player, sorry, but your hand is dead.

2.  Same answer.  To have a valid hand the player MUST have two hole cards.  Again I would take into consideration the experience of the player etc., as I said above.  Remember this player gets "One chance only".  This doesn't mean one chance per event.  Had that player not protected his hand previously and 'used his one chance', the hand is dead!!

Finally, while I totally understand what you are trying to do (at least I think I understand) with the rather detailed changes you have suggested to different rules, I think it is more than what the TDA is comfortable with.  In my opinion, and I am not speaking for the TDA BOD in any way, shape or form, one of the desires of the TDA BOD is to resolve the most difficult and confusing situations with brevity in mind.   There is a reason for that part of TDA Rule #1 which says, "...Unusual circumstances can on occasion dictate that decisions in the interest of fairness take priority over the technical rules..." 

What is important, in my opinion, is that consistent decisions are made.  It is just unacceptable to me that floor persons in the same house will take identical situations and make different rulings.  I can accept different rulings from one house to another, but NEVER within the same house.