Author Topic: Should play stop with best hand on board?  (Read 11883 times)

Nick C

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Should play stop with best hand on board?
« on: January 18, 2011, 09:25:23 AM »
 Do you think it is a good idea to allow players to continue betting, when the nut straight is on board? Should we allow the possibility of embarrassing a player if he folds? Should we allow players to continue raising when it is no more than, a waste of time? I'd like to see an automatic "chop rule" as soon as the nut straight hits the board.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 04:31:10 PM by Nick C »

JasperToo

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Re: Should play stop with best hand on board?
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2011, 12:21:15 PM »
No!!!  Yikes!  that's one of the most fun times to be had, getting someone to fold to a bet because they don't see an ace high straight on the board.  It's a pretty rare situation in any event since it would have to be on the river with a broadway straight on the board and no chance at a flush.  It just isn't going to happen enough to make it matter.  Really, we sorta live for those mistakes don't we?  And isn't that why we have a "don't talk about the hand" rule so people aren't prompted into noticing something that they might have missed?

DCJ001

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Re: Should play stop with best hand on board?
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2011, 12:22:30 PM »
Stopping play and chopping up a pot in a situation in which the board reads Ac Kd Qh Js 10D is a ludicrous idea and boils down to assisting players who are not observant in the play of their hands, in violation of "One player to a hand."

I saw a hand like this play out in a $10,000 buy in tournament in which, after the river was dealt, the board read A K Q J 10 rainbow. There was a bet, a call, a raise, a reraise all in, etc. But one of the late position players and the original caller folded, apparently not realizing that. if they had called, they would have maintained their equity in the hand.

Poker is a competitive game in which each player should do their best to win without assistance from other players or the tournament staff.

Nick C

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Re: Should play stop with best hand on board?
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2011, 02:56:25 PM »
Okay guys......So when do you stop the re-raising? Or do you let them "raise til the cows come home."

JasperToo

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Re: Should play stop with best hand on board?
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2011, 02:59:28 PM »
It stops when they their bet includes some portion of the felt!

Stuart Murray

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Re: Should play stop with best hand on board?
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2011, 04:18:12 PM »
agreed with Jasper and DJC, stopping betting when a nuts is the board is assisting players, and therefore not in the best interests of the game.  To me I love nothing more than getting all my chips in when the board is a broadway straight or AAAAK etc

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Stuart

Nick C

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Re: Should play stop with best hand on board?
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2011, 04:29:26 PM »
Sounds to me like, the three of you would rather toss an anchor, than a life vest to a floundering new player. Way to go guys. Nothing like turning a new player into an embarrassed player that probably won't return. Real classy.

chet

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Re: Should play stop with best hand on board?
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2011, 08:39:59 PM »
Nick:  I totally understand what you are trying to accomplish, but I am not sure there is a equitable way to do it.  I don't see any possible way to "cap" the betting in the situation you describe.  Remember this is a tournament not a cash game.  If this was a cash game, I think you could find a way to take the "total novice" player aside and provide some advice.

In a tournament, by doing so you are looking at a violation of AT LEAST rules, 41, 43 and 44.  If we, as TD's don't follow the rules how can we expect the players to do so?

Nick C

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Re: Should play stop with best hand on board?
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2011, 02:04:45 AM »
Chet,
 I'm not trying to implement a "cap" rule, I would like (the dealer) to be able to announce to the table that all players, holding the correct number of cards when the river card is placed on the board, split the pot. That's all. Move on to the next deal. I actually feel that it makes more sense to use it in a tournament, more so than a cash game. Imagine, a limit game down to two players, going back and forth raising each other in increments of 10 chip wagers. It is not a major issue, that's for sure, but it is more logical (to me) than some of the other topics that have discussed on the forum.
 I think it is more "ethical," to save any player the embarassment of folding a hand in that situation. I was dealing in a (cash game), about ten years ago where this exact situation occured.  The game was hold'em $10/$20, and on the river I put a "ace high straight rainbow" on the board. I still remember how uneasy I felt when the gentleman that was running the game, bet into a new player and he laid down his hand. It's just one of those situations that I think of from time to time. About two hands later, the guy that initiated that wager actually gave the player the equivalent of half the pot. Unfortunetly, I guess the damage was already done. Just one of those insignificant events that stayed with me. I'll never forget the look on that guys face when he realized what he did. Oh, he never did return to that game.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2012, 06:15:17 AM by Nick C »

Stuart Murray

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Re: Should play stop with best hand on board?
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2011, 06:51:19 AM »
Nick,

The addition of getting a newbie player to fold the river when the nuts is the board is an anecdotal piece and not the reason for why your suggestion is infallible.  As my previous post stopping the action because there is an unbeatable board is assisting players, it is the same as a dealer saying "there's four cards to a straight" or "there's four hearts on the board" or when the board reads QQQQK "Ace in the hole is taking this one" that is ways in which players should never be assisted, in the same way as betting and raising should never be halted because of it.

If it was a newbie at the table I would gladly check call the river or check down, the same way I would show them my hand in order that they understand what I am doing why I am betting or raising, for example when I hit top pair with a flush draw on the flop and the player gives up his hand because he is a newbie I would quickly table my hand and say "lovely flop for me there top and the flush draw etc." Going back to what you said about trying the bet out a new player where the board is the nuts is something I would not do, it is something I would do for fun against an experienced player who knew what I was doing and would quickly follow suit by putting all their chips in, in order to lighten the mood, in a bit of fun against a GOOD player.

Regards
Stuart

JasperToo

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Re: Should play stop with best hand on board?
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2011, 09:10:11 AM »
Just for the record, I am with Stuart.  I said that betting someone off a nut board is fun but I have only ever done it (or had it done against me) by the good players.  And generally someone I know but not always.  The newbies get a break along the lines that Stuart suggested.

And as far as the newbie being embarrassed, I can attest to the fact that that is some of the best tuition I ever spent.  If an event like that keeps someone from coming back to the game (though they may not come back to a specific game for awhile) then they aren't lasting long anyway.  Just sayin.

WSOPMcGee

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Re: Should play stop with best hand on board?
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2011, 01:16:42 AM »
Okay guys......So when do you stop the re-raising? Or do you let them "raise til the cows come home."

Aside from the good natured ribbing going on....

Most houses have a betting limit, 3 or 4 raises in a Limit game. In a heads-up situation, in Limit, generally one of the players realizes it's nonsense to keep raising and finally calls. If they want to raise "until the cows come home" eventually they'll be on the felt and it'll be over. At that point all the bets are in front of them anyways and theirs not much to chop-up for the dealer.

In No Limit, you let them go all-in, to the felt.  Again, the chips will usually be in front of the players and all the dealer has to do is chop-up the middle.

There is no poker if you can't have the ability to move someone off their hand, no matter how novice. You might as well just take everyone's cards and turn them face up.
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pineforest

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Re: Should play stop with best hand on board?
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2011, 04:44:24 AM »
Absolutely not!!  Then you may as well let someone off the hook for not betting the nuts with last action because the didn't know they had the nuts.  If you are talking about a cash game that would be bad as well.  This is poker, not poker lessons.  I suppose you could have a newbies table with relaxed rules to satisfy your need.

Nick C

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Re: Should play stop with best hand on board?
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2012, 07:13:41 AM »
This is a very old post that I decided to revisit. The more I think about the rules for tournament poker, the more surprised I am at the answers to my question.

Insert Quote
 Do you think it is a good idea to allow players to continue betting, when the nut straight is on board? Should we allow the possibility of embarrassing a player if he folds? Should we allow players to continue raising when it is no more than, a waste of time? I'd like to see an automatic "chop rule" as soon as the nut straight hits the board.

Would you consider the possibility of chip dumping?

Wouldn't splitting the pot be more in compliance with fairness?

How about the integrity of the game?

Isn't it our responsibility to award the pot to the player holding the best hand?

This is an interesting quote from a well respected TDA member and published author Thomas McGee.
 
"There is no poker if you can't have the ability to move someone off their hand, no matter how novice. You might as well just take everyone's cards and turn them face up."

That's what I'm talking about ;D.

K-Lo

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Re: Should play stop with best hand on board?
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2012, 01:28:23 PM »
I don't think it's a big deal either way, and it happens so rarely.  My initial reaction is that I don't really favor a rule that rewards a player who has not yet learned how to read a board.  If chip dumping is suspected, then punish the chip dumping by penalty (the rules already provide for that).

There is also the practical issue that you now require the dealer to read the board correctly before betting commences.  They may not even be concentrating on the board then, only on the betting.  Adding one rule will lead into requiring further rules to clarify when an irregularity occurs - what happens when a dealer misses the fact that the board shows a nut straight and someone has folded?  What happens if the dealer stops play indicating that the board shows a nut straight, but in fact there is a three flush, and the person with the flush loses bets because he has to correct the dealer?

I think you have good intentions, but I feel an automatic chop rule would just open Pandora's box to a slew of a whole other set of problems.