Can a mucked hand still be the winning hand?

[JasperToo]

Jasper Too,
I also know that the original question posted by Christine is not covered in the TDA rules. I believe that Christine handled the situation perfectly.

Actually, Christine didn't handle the situation, she just asked the question and never said how she would handle it. But you did in the very next post.  And I think that you pointed out the one thing that I hear you complaining about in your last post.  Any house rule that says you have to show the winning (or in this case a called hand) at showdown.  It is hard to tell by Christine's post if this is a house rule or a misapplication of the "last player to take aggressive action" rule.  Either way her original scenario had either the dealer or the rules displaying the called hand and your answer to take the mucked cards aside, award the pot, and then tap the cards to the muck and display the cards is exactly correct.

D.C. has trouble with the rule that says if the "opponent" with a hand in the showdown asks to see a hand that was folded it is then 'live" and could win the pot if it bests the opponents hand.
You point out in your last post that it is important to note that their are only two players left in the hand because it eliminates thoughts of collusion.  That is the essential part of the resurrection rule for this reason: If there are only two players left, any other player that may have suspected collusion can ask to see the mucked hand (looking for the chip dump) and the "winning" player shouldn't risk losing because someone else wanted to see the hand.  But if the opponent with a hand at the showdown asks to see a hand, then he certainly isn't looking for collusion and he has to risk losing the hand if he wants to see his opponents folded hand.

I wholeheartedly agree that a house rule that demands to show all hands at the showdown (or some variation) is a big time waster and actually bad for the game as it forces players to show some amount of information when they shouldn't have to.

[Nick C]

Jasper Too,

Christine may have been a little confused but, *she did award the pot to the correct player, Player B. *UPON FURTHER REVIEW, you are correct, I was mistaken, she was uncertain and did not make that decision. I think that, based on our replies, she will have enough information to make the right call in the future.

DC might not like the idea but, if you are about to be awarded the pot, it is probably a good idea not to insist on seeing a folded hand. Take the pot and try for two in a row.

 Sorry Jasper, I'll take a closer look from now on.

[JasperToo]

So Christine, did you find an answer?

[WSOPMcGee]

Just to clarify something that hasn't been brought to fore....  Although this particular rule is there technically to prevent collusive behavior, allowing other players at the table to ask to see any hand, it is more accurate to say that the rule is there to deter players from being unsportsmanlike and forcing their opponent to showdown there hand when they are conceding the pot.

In Christine's example Player A has bet and Player B called, with Player A mucking. In this situation Player B is the "calling" player and would like to know what Player A is betting with.

The opposite situation is Player A has bet and Player B called, Player A showsdown and Player B mucks. Being the bettor, aggressor, it is unsportsmanlike to ask to see what Player B is calling with, when they have conceded the pot. This is the situation that brought the rule to state, "If the winner, asks to see the conceding player's hand, then the hand is live".

Because truthfully if a player wants to concede the pot to you by folding, uncontested, and you want to see their hand, you DESERVE to lose the pot if their hand is better than yours. You have to ask yourself what is more important - The Chips? or the Information?

[Nick C]

wsopmcgee, 
Welcome back.

 I must be from the old school. I see nothing wrong in asking to see a called hand, tournament or cash game. I know what the rules say, I just don't agree. If I pay to the end, I want to see all of the hands, not just the winner. We watch world class players each day on TV and we know their hole cards, so what's the big deal about seeing a hand I paid to see?

[DCJ001]

I must be from the old school. I see nothing wrong in asking to see a called hand, tournament or cash game. I know what the rules say, I just don't agree.

Here is the way that the rules are - XXXXXXXXXXX

Here is the way that you'd like the rules to be - OOOOOOOOO

They are two different things. Unless the rules change, it's a good idea to keep the rules in mind.

[Stuart Murray]

Because truthfully if a player wants to concede the pot to you by folding, uncontested, and you want to see their hand, you DESERVE to lose the pot if their hand is better than yours. You have to ask yourself what is more important - The Chips? or the Information?

agreed Wsop!

I think it is along the same lines as not betting when last to act when holding the nuts, it's a tournament, gaining chips is far more important than seeing other players hands.  An old school player asked to see someone elses hand last week in a tournament, when they had passed pre-flop, the answer was no, you are not getting to see it.  I now ask "do you suspect collusion or soft play?" if the answer is no the hand is not getting turned.

DJC - I don't believe your comment is very constructive or worthy, we all have our own opinions, and the fact that Nick is demonstrating his should be encouraged rather as shunned.

Regards
Stuart

[DCJ001]

Stuart.

Nick plainly said that he disagrees with some of the rules. I simply recommended that he pay more attention to the rules than to encourage subjectivity and inconsistency. Based on what Nick has said, he deals and is an instructor of dealers. By dealing outside of the rules, he affects the lives of x poker players. By training fifty new dealers (for example), who will believe whatever incorrect information that they are taught, Nick is affecting the lives of 50x poker players.

I realize that many people do not like to be told what to do, or even take unsolicited advice from people. But, based on Nick's apparent lack of understanding of the rules of poker (which he sometimes admits to, and his willingness to bend the rules when he sees fit, I felt that I should give my opinion, which will, most likely be ignored.

I'm also sure that Nick appreciates you looking out for him. But I'm also sure that he feels that he doesn't need help.

My opinion was merely expressed in an effort to provoke thought and, possibly, instill change.

[Nick C]

DCJ,

 Perhaps if you offered any constructive criticism I would listen. I know nothing about you other than your obnoxious remarks. There are over 1200 members and you are the (hidden one). I expect if I ever do see you in a card room you will be wearing a mask. If there is anything else that bothers you about my feelings on rules of poker, you can contact me on-line ....nickscasinopoker@comf5.com...

 I have trained many dealers that are working all across the country. They are some of the best dealers anywhere. I have had their respect and still correspond with many that I trained over thirty years ago. I've opened a poker room and trained card room managers. I don't appreciate you, or any of your comments. The only thing you got right was the part about your opinion being ignored.

[WSOPMcGee]

wsopmcgee, 
Welcome back.

 I must be from the old school. I see nothing wrong in asking to see a called hand, tournament or cash game. I know what the rules say, I just don't agree. If I pay to the end, I want to see all of the hands, not just the winner. We watch world class players each day on TV and we know their hole cards, so what's the big deal about seeing a hand I paid to see?

Thanks for the welcome back... it has been a while.

You're right about that it shouldn't be a big deal. We do see cards on TV all the time. The rule allows for anyone at the table to ask to see the hand. The difference is, when a person who is not contesting the pot asks, the hand is "killed" and then revealed. When the winner wants to see what someone is betting/calling with, the hand is ruled live, because it is considered rude. Same as someone "slow rolling". That's all.

But you are within your rights to ask to see it. Though some casino's don't let you, because of the "rude" factor.