Author Topic: all in then muck ???  (Read 10811 times)

BenRobin

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all in then muck ???
« on: December 15, 2009, 02:10:35 PM »
Hi , i'm new here but i like the TDA and refferring to it all the time and i have a question for you !!! ( Sorry for my english i'm a french canadien :)

In a tournement i go all in and everybody fold after me exept 1 player who says all in too !!! after him the players fold and he think he was alone on the pot and muck his hand ???? what happen with this situation ???   The Hand cross the line but didn't touch the muck card !!!    What happen with his chips ? His all in and muck is hand ???

Thanks and sorry again for my english 

chet

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Re: all in then muck ???
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2009, 04:55:33 PM »
In a tournement i go all in and everybody fold after me exept 1 player who says all in too !!! after him the players fold and he think he was alone on the pot and muck his hand ???? what happen with this situation ???   The Hand cross the line but didn't touch the muck card !!!    What happen with his chips ? His all in and muck is hand ???

Thanks and sorry again for my english

Ben:  Don't worry about your English, it is plenty good enough for this bunch of rascals :-)

Rule 9, Face Up - All cards will be turned face up once a player is all-in and all betting action is complete.

My interpretation of your situation, given the facts you present, is that his hand is live, should be retrieved and both hands turned face up.  The better hand wins after the board is complete.

It gets a bit more complicated if his hand actually goes into the muck.  In that case, I would do everything possible to identify his hand and retrieve it.  If I could not, then my ruling would be that he did not protect his hand and that hand is dead.  I would require him to "call" your all-in (assuming he had you covered) and return any additional chips to him.  This is very similar to the situation in another thread where the dealer improperly grabbed the #1 seat players cards and pulled them into the muck.  The TD attempted to retrieve the cards but was unable to do so.  If you check some of the other threads, you will see a link to a video of the situation.

Hope this Helps!!

MikeB

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Re: all in then muck ???
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2009, 11:17:52 AM »
Hi , i'm new here but i like the TDA and refferring to it all the time and i have a question for you !!! ( Sorry for my english i'm a french canadien :)

In a tournement i go all in and everybody fold after me exept 1 player who says all in too !!! after him the players fold and he think he was alone on the pot and muck his hand ???? what happen with this situation ???   The Hand cross the line but didn't touch the muck card !!!    What happen with his chips ? His all in and muck is hand ???

Thanks and sorry again for my english  

Ben I think you'll have almost unanimous agreement with Chet's interpretation. While it's understandable that the player still holding his cards might be upset about retrieving the mucked hand, the muck was an understandable mistake and most importantly the cards can be retrieved to 100% certainty. If there's even a slight doubt as to which two cards are his, then you almost certainly win because he voluntarily mucked, but there's no doubt which are his cards in this case. Also, keep in mind that at the showdown the term "I fold" has no meaning, this player has paid to be in the showdown and once you cross that line, it's Cards Read. The player did not "bet/muck" or "check/muck" intentionally here, he only tossed his cards because he thought (mistakenly) that he'd won it..... For these various reasons, IMO we can't interpret his "muck" as a "binding fold" because he's already crossed the threshold into an all-in showdown. The only question is whether we can retrieve the cards or not with 100% certainty.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2009, 10:58:08 PM by MikeB »

W0lfster

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Re: all in then muck ???
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2011, 04:00:05 AM »
However, this is differemt in a cash game I believe as you do not have to show your cards until the end, so it is quite possible if you did muck your cards at the river you wont be granted the luxury of having your cards turned face up and having them live.

Brian Vickers

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Re: all in then muck ???
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2011, 12:45:37 PM »
However, this is differemt in a cash game I believe as you do not have to show your cards until the end, so it is quite possible if you did muck your cards at the river you wont be granted the luxury of having your cards turned face up and having them live.

In both the rooms I have worked in, if the player retrieves his cards himself and they do not hit the muck or any other face down cards then the hand would be live.  This was the same in tournaments and live games.  The only difference being that in a tournament the dealer would flip up the cards himself if an all-in player tried to muck, since the hand had to be shown.

Stuart Murray

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Re: all in then muck ???
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2011, 06:31:54 PM »
yip I agree with Chet etc, the hand is live and shall play

Welcome to the forum BenRobin, and your English is better than many a person I know who's first language is English!

Regards
Stuart

Nick C

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Re: all in then muck ???
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2011, 06:27:08 AM »
Welcome BenRobin,
 I can agree with most that if the hand did not hit the muck it is still live. The question that Ben asked was answered by everyone and I also agree the cards were identified with certainty, so...the hand is live. I do have a problem with cards being live when the owner of the hand says fold and tosses the cards in the direction of the muck. We have discussed this on other posts and I still have not seen any rule that states the dealer should turn over any cards at the showdown. I would not object to it, (in a tournament only), but as far as I know, it does not exist. I understand that in a tournament all cards should be tabled at the showdown but, when the owner of the hand mucks his hand after seeing a hand that has him beat, it is generally accepted. If we are expected to enforce a "must show," (for tournaments only), then I think we must consider making it mandatory for the dealer to turn all cards face up at the showdown, if the owner of the hand doesn't.

fgmyers

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Re: all in then muck ???
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2011, 09:07:20 PM »
If the player were facing a bet and released his cards forward he has a dead hand. 

His was a called bet and the cards were recoverable, his hand is live.

If they had hit the muck, but were clearly, 100% identifiable, his hand is live. 

I believe this to be true in both cash games and TMT.
Thanks!

Frank Myers
Poker Shift Manager
Big Easy Poker Room
Mardi Gras Casino FL

Nick C

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Re: all in then muck ???
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2011, 03:34:17 PM »
Frank,
 I'm glad you got your package. There's some real good reading there. I want to respond to your recent comments.

If the player were facing a bet and released his cards forward he has a dead hand.  .......Yes, he is folding, but the hand is still live until the dealer drags it into the muck.

His was a called bet and the cards were recoverable, his hand is live. ........Yes, unless it is mucked beyond recognition. In a tournament; the hand must be tabled at the showdown.

If they had hit the muck, but were clearly, 100% identifiable, his hand is live. ............If this were a cash game, I would say NO. In a tournament, if this took place on any betting street, and not the showdown, I would still have a tough time returning the hand and would have to consider why he mucked the hand when he did. Don't forget, in a cash game, a player may request to see an oponents called hand after he attemps to muck it, but the dealer should kill the hand first, and then turn it over. In a tournament, at the showdown, the difference is; the called hand can not be killed because "cards speak."

I believe this to be true in both cash games and TMT. .........So, to continue, IMO there is a big difference between cash games and tournaments.
In a tournament we have to see all called hands at the showdown. But, please don't try to pull a hand out of the muck on me in a cash game, okay?
 
« Last Edit: March 18, 2011, 05:15:39 AM by Nick C »

W0lfster

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Re: all in then muck ???
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2011, 02:30:55 AM »
Very good explanation Nick that pretty much sums up what I was trying to say. The only thing I don't understand is: in a cash game, If they had hit the muck, but were clearly, 100% identifiable, his hand is live. ............If this were a cash game, I would say NO I thought that the only time they were live in this situation was if they were 100% identifiable, correct me if im wrong, but wouldnt that be a bit harsh to call it dead?

Another question, Ive read somewhere the dealer is not allowed to table the cards at showdown in a tournament only the players. If this is so then what happens when you have a really stubborn player who does not like to be told what to do and turns it over right at the end?

Thank you again Nick  :)

Nick C

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Re: all in then muck ???
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2011, 05:58:41 AM »
Andy,
 I'm trying to separate the cash game from the tournament. To answer your question about why a hand that were 100% identifiable that hits the muck is dead. There are always exceptions to rules that must be considered. In my earlier statement I am under the assumption that the hand was voluntarily surrendered by the owner of the hand, and it hit the muck. The hand is dead. The exception to the rule would be if the hand were tabled and the dealer mucked it by mistake. Then the hand would be retrieved from the muck, and the pot awarded to the winner. Players have a responsibility to PROTECT THEIR OWN HAND. If they fail to do so, they will suffer the consiquences.

 I think the important difference is:
       Tournament- Any player that is in for all bets must table their hand at the showdown.
       Cash Game- Players are responsible if they voluntarily muck their hand in error. A hand that was never properly tabled, and tossed into the muck is dead.

The answer for your next question comes from volumes of manuals on dealer training. This has been a topic of discussion on many other posts. A dealer should NEVER turn over any players live hand without the explicid request of the owner of the hand. Notice I said live, this will exclude a mucked hand. In order to keep within the rules for any player having the right to see a called hand, the dealer will "kill" the hand by touching it to the muck before revealing the hand to the table. There are members that say the dealer must turn over the cards in a tournament but, IT IS NOT YET A TOURNAMENT RULE.