Author Topic: Pot-limit rules  (Read 10508 times)

Elder_Dragon

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Pot-limit rules
« on: January 03, 2011, 01:58:04 PM »
Accordingly to RRoP section 14:

POT-LIMIT RULES
[...] The maximum amount a player can raise is the amount in the pot after the call is made.

I had a little discussion about the maximum preflop wager allowed.
Let's say SB is 50 and BB 100. It's clear that a player in any position can put a maximum bet of 350 (bet 100 + raise 250), being the first to bet.
But what about the SB, if all previous players folded?
And how much the BB can bet, if the SB was the only player to make action (call)?

Thank you in advance.

Nick C

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Re: Pot-limit rules
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2011, 03:51:58 PM »
Elder  Dragon,
Raises in pot-limit are the toughest by far to explain. There are some card rooms that "round off bets," so beyond the initial pre flop it gets more difficult. I agree with your call of 350 with the blinds of 50/100. An easier way to calculate might be 7 times the small blind, although some rooms assume that the SB will call so, it would be another 50 for a total of 400. I hope this makes some sense. I would also say that if all other players fold, leaving the blinds, if the SB calls, the BB could raise another 200, putting a total of 400 into the pot. If the SB wants to raise, I believe that he would have the same option, a total bet of 400.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 12:09:29 PM by Nick C »

Stuart Murray

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Re: Pot-limit rules
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2011, 11:51:24 AM »
similar to Nick's response, in true, true pot limit if it was folded to the SB he could open for a maximum of 300 total, but the majority of card-rooms do not stick to this, it would be the same if the BB was all-in for 75 at 50/100, in true pot limit the maximum open would be 200 total.

Normally in pot limit games now the SB would be allowed to open for 350 total and in the situation where the BB was all-in for 75 it would still be 350, but it is more down to the Floors methodology.

For a good explanation see this video by Steve Frezer one of the WSOP TD's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmsDtNwp89g

Regards
Stuart

Elder_Dragon

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Re: Pot-limit rules
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2011, 12:06:55 PM »
Nick C,
assuming from your explanation that you wrote 400 but you meant 300 (100 call + 200 raise, both for SB and BB), I am in your shoes, as this seems to me the best way to apply the written rules (and yes, I don't want to take into count any "round off" rule).
The fact is that most of the players I asked about gave me two other answers:
- 350, as all players have to be equal in their chanches
- an other amount (>350) that I don't ever mention, being a no-sense

Any thoughts from somebody else?

chet

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Re: Pot-limit rules
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2011, 12:32:40 PM »
I believe that 400 as Nick stated is correct.  Lets assume that everyone folds to the SB.  Before the SB acts there is 150 in the Pot (50, SB and 100, BB).  The SB decides to Raise "The Pot".  The first action is for the SB to put in the 50 to call, which results in a pot of 200, and then the SB can raise "The Pot" or another 200 for a total pot of 400. 

The action is now to the BB, who already has 100 in the pot.  Assuming the BB does not fold, he can call (300, Pot is now 700) or he can raise up to an additional 700 (which would make the pot 1400) can he not?

At least this is how it has always been explained to me. 

The person to act (assuming they want to raise) first adds in the amount necessary to call, the pot amount is determined, and then this person can raise up to the amount in the pot. 

Chet

Elder_Dragon

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Re: Pot-limit rules
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2011, 12:42:37 PM »
Well, it just depends on the fact if you refer to the maximum BET the player can put on (that's what I was asking for, so 300) or to the final total amount of the POT after that bet (being 400, but I don't see how that could have any pratical use).

Oddvark

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Re: Pot-limit rules
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2011, 01:04:20 PM »
Chet and Nick describe the application of the rule correctly, but give the wrong answer.

Lets assume that everyone folds to the SB.  Before the SB acts there is 150 in the Pot (50, SB and 100, BB).  The SB decides to Raise "The Pot".  The first action is for the SB to put in the 50 to call, which results in a pot of 200, and then the SB can raise "The Pot" or another 200 for a total pot of 400.

This is exactly correct, but the result is that the SB's total action is to 300 (50 SB + 50 call + 200 raise).  After the SB's action of 300, the total pot is 400, but 100 of that is the big blind.

I think only allowing the SB or BB to make it 300 rather than the 350 to which other players could raise fits with the idea of pot limit poker.  It is not unfair. 

The idea that it is somehow unfair seems to be that if any player other than this SB raises pot (350), and action folds to the BB, the BB will be facing a 250 raise.  But if the SB raises pot (300), the BB only faces a 200 raise.  This difference is not unfair if you look at it from a "pot odds" perspective.  When a player not in the blinds raises to 350 and everyone else folds, the BB must call 250 to win 500 (50 SB + 100 BB + 350 raise), a 2-to-1 call.  Similarly, when the SB raises to 300, the BB must call 200 to win 400 (300 bet from SB + 100 BB), again a 2-to-1 call.

Nick C

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Re: Pot-limit rules
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2011, 02:06:19 PM »
Elder Dragon,
 I probably should have separated or broke-down the bets and raise. Instead, I described it as the total bet (bet+raise) of 400.

 I told you it was complicated. I think the best formula is; when facing a bet you need to add in your call, so....Pot size + Bets in front of you + your call x 2= total bet allowed.

WSOPMcGee

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Re: Pot-limit rules
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2011, 04:19:01 PM »
Accordingly to RRoP section 14:

POT-LIMIT RULES
[...] The maximum amount a player can raise is the amount in the pot after the call is made.

I had a little discussion about the maximum preflop wager allowed.
Let's say SB is 50 and BB 100. It's clear that a player in any position can put a maximum bet of 350 (bet 100 + raise 250), being the first to bet.
But what about the SB, if all previous players folded?
And how much the BB can bet, if the SB was the only player to make action (call)?

Thank you in advance.

Elder to answer your question, the answer is 300 as Oddvark explained. Both the SB and the BB can only make it 300.

Stuart, I'm  :o at your link. I'm surprised at the answer. It is not a 'grey area' or 'undefined'. In the video, the questioner asks if the Blinds are 5,000-10,000 but the BB only has 5,000 in chips, how much is maximum bet to come in? Thankfully, Mr. Frezer didn't let us down by saying the BB is the BB and it's 10,000.

In flop games with blinds, the structured BB amount is always the minimum amount to call and is treated as a full bet even if the BB has less chips than the minimum bet required. Thus, the full amount of the BB is considered complete when calculating the pot for purposes of raising the pot.

Now that's tournament rules Elder and true Pot-Limit.

As some have alluded to, most cash games, particularly American cash games (Europeans tend to like true pot-limit), the SB is treated as being equal to the BB when calculating the pot. If there is a straddle, all other blinds are treated as being equal to the straddle.

So, if blinds are 25-50 (American cash games) the max opening bet is 200. SB 50 + BB 50 + 1st Call 50 + Raise 150 more for a total bet of 200. If there's a straddle, usually it's double the BB (but could be more), then all other blinds are treated as equal to the amount of the straddle. So if the blinds are 25-50 and there's a straddle for 100, the opener (who is not the SB or BB) can make it 500 (SB 100 + BB 100 + Straddle 100 + 1st call 100 + 400 more).

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Nick C

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Re: Pot-limit rules
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2011, 05:59:24 PM »
Are you sure I can't bring my calculator to this game?

Brian Vickers

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Re: Pot-limit rules
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2011, 03:53:47 AM »
While on the subject, this may be helpful to those of you trying to explain pot-size raises in pot-limit games.

The way I was taught pot-limit and the way I always train dealers is:  The total bet of a pot-size raiser = 3 x the bet you are facing + everything behind it including the pot.  In a tournament with 50 and 100 blinds the first person is facing a 100 bet so it's 3x100 with 50 small blind so the total bet is 350.  If the next person wants to bet the pot it's 3x 350 (the bet he's facing) + 100 bb and 50 sb = total bet of 1200.  This formula holds up for any number of pot size re-raises and really speeds up the process instead of saying "ok, call the 100, then raise it 100+100+5 more, etc)

Nick C

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Re: Pot-limit rules
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2011, 08:44:00 AM »
Brian,
 Whenever we have questions about pot limit, it makes me wonder why anyone spreads the game. The formula for the UTG player pre-flop is easy enough to understand; e.g. 3.5 X BB or 7 X SB (which ever is easiest for you). Does your formula work when multiple players call the BB, and then a player wants to raise? Example; blinds 50/100, UTG calls and three other players call...so the 50 SB +100 BB + 4 Players in front of the next player wanting to raise (refered to as the 'trail'). Example 50 SB + 100 BB+ 100 UTG +100 2nd Caller +100 3rd Caller  +100 4th Caller....so the bettor is facing; 50+ 100+ 100+ 100+ 100+ 100 (total 550). Minimum call is 100, minimum raise is another 100 for a 200 total. What is the maximum total (pot) bet that this player can make? Does your formula work? To call is 100 so.. 3 X 100 (the bet you are facing) + the blinds and trail of 550 = 850 (total bet from player). The total pot size would be 1400, 850 + 550 = 1400. Is this correct? If it is, then you have a great formula. The amount of the players raise was 700. I am mearly trying to understand a game that I don't play and haven't dealt in 25 years.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 11:44:06 AM by Nick C »

Desi

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Re: Pot-limit rules
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2011, 09:24:00 PM »
Iam the same as Brian, the easiest way to work it out is 3x the bet you are facing plus all bets/calls behind that plus the pot.
So say the blinds are 50-100 and there are 3 limpers and you want to raise the pot, the maximum would be 3x the last bet on table which in this case is a limper of 100 (x3=300) plus the other 2 limpers (200) plus the blinds (150) max raise is a total of 650.

Maybe this will help -



To answer the OP-
For the SB to raise if everyone folds it would be to 300 total, and same for the bb if everyone folded apart from the sb. Its just 3x the last bet, but not including any bet/call the raiser has made, for example in this case we would ignore the 100 the bb has already put in if he wanted to raise with just the sb as the only caller.

« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 09:31:25 PM by Desi »

Nick C

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Re: Pot-limit rules
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2011, 07:40:50 AM »
Can anyone go over my reply #11 and tell me if I figured it correct? I thought that I understood pot limit but it is far too confusing for me. No one has answered my questions. Or maybe I am having a senior moment. The replies are contradicting, to me.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 08:30:57 AM by Nick C »

Desi

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Re: Pot-limit rules
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2011, 09:39:12 AM »
Can anyone go over my reply #11 and tell me if I figured it correct? I thought that I understood pot limit but it is far too confusing for me. No one has answered my questions. Or maybe I am having a senior moment. The replies are contradicting, to me.

Nick the pot bet here would be to 750, 3x the last bet/call ( 100 from limper 4 = 300 ) plus the other calls/blinds ( 3 other limpers =300 + bb 100 + sb 50 = 450 ) for a total of 750. In the example I used above there was 3 limpers and the pot bet was 650, so by adding 1 more limper into that equation it just adds on 100 to the pot bet.
When I was being taught how to work out the pot I could never get my round the way you go about working it out, with making the call first and then the raise plus the rest of the bets etc.