Author Topic: Folding in Turn  (Read 9373 times)

Dave Lamb

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Folding in Turn
« on: November 23, 2010, 10:40:53 AM »

I am having one of those discussions where we both believe we are absolutely correct. What do you think about the situation below...

After the flop, with five players remaining, the first and second players check and the third player just folds his hand. Has the player done anything wrong?

Goodpokerjody

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Re: Folding in Turn
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2010, 10:53:40 AM »
IMO it there is nothing wrong with folding in turn.  There are those who would argue that players aren't allowed to fold when there's no action to them.  I was taught that players always have three options to act when it is their turn.  In this case, player 3's options were:  check, bet, or fold.  Can this change the way the other players play the hand?  Sure.  Everyone at the table has money invested in the game.  If a player chooses to fold weak hands when there's no action, the more astute players will notice he probably has a good hand or may be on a draw when he doesn't fold.  This means there's a tell to be had here by the players who notice this trend.  Poker is a game of information and the house has no right to prevent this from happening and negate this glaring tell from this player.

MikeB

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Re: Folding in Turn
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2010, 11:53:13 AM »
I'll admit I've never penalized a fold when not facing action. Most often a player with no mal-intent is just having a gut reaction to a rag hand when they do this, thinking 'I better toss this hand before I waste any more money on it".... but this thread raises the question:

1: Is this a form of soft play? What could be softer play than folding when you don't have to? The guy could at least hit runner-runner trips here, and he can always fold to a bet if and when it comes along...

2: And could there be mal-intent: could such a fold set up a form of chip dumping?

I wouldn't have a problem considering the non-pressured fold as a potential violation in this light, worthy of at least a warning.

JasperToo

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Re: Folding in Turn
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2010, 12:09:41 PM »
I have actually always believed that you only have two actions available to you if there is no bet in front of you; check or bet.  There is nothing in RROP that says this, but then it doesn't say that you have the option to fold either.  My take on it revolves around two bits in RROP from poker etiquette and the tournament section.

In the tournament section it states that "Players are obligated to protect the other players in the tournament at all times".  Perhaps it is a bit of a stretch but if a player folds with no action to him he is not protecting the other players since someone behind him will play the hand differently because there are fewer players in the pot.  i.e. a player will not feel he has to bet as much in a later position (therefore not risking as much against a player in front of the folder that is going to check raise).  Another player may feel like he could call a bet because there won't be as many players in the hand.

In the poker etiquette section improper actions include "Making statements or taking action that could unfairly influence the course of play whether or not the offender is involved in the pot".  This just seems to roll right along with my logic stated above.  There is another bit in there that says "revealing the contents of a live hand in a multihanded pot before the betting is complete".  While the player is obviously not revealing the contents of his hand directly he is revealing the fact that he is not a threat to another player.  

All this is probably most important in tournaments and NL cash games as limit play is less likely to be effected by a fold in turn.

We encourage players to not fold unless there is a bet and ignore those times that a player leaves his cards unprotected and gets up from the table cause they need to pee :)

my .02 cents
« Last Edit: November 23, 2010, 12:17:34 PM by JasperToo »

JasperToo

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Re: Folding in Turn
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2010, 12:20:59 PM »
I think MikeB makes a good point about soft play too.  Why fold if there is no action?  The player should always take a free card if given. 

I don't think any angler that is looking to chip dump would have to fold out of turn to get it done though, and would be more likely to wait until his dumpee puts in a small wager before releasing his hand.

AleaLeedsCardRoom

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Re: Folding in Turn
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2010, 12:27:52 PM »
I agree that they should want to take a free card where possible, but if they want to fold in this manner and give away a tell, then why stop them.  I would only call soft play if I saw patterns with this play not just because they did it once.

Lewis

DCJ001

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Re: Folding in Turn
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2010, 01:51:53 PM »
And what if five players in a tournament were to see a flop, the first player folds, the second player folds, the third player folds, the fourth player folds, and the fifth player takes the pot.

If it's okay for one player to fold with no action to him, shouldn't it be okay for everyone to fold with no action to them?

If you warn or penalize any of the four players who folded in this hypothetical, shouldn't they all be warned or penalized?

JasperToo

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Re: Folding in Turn
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2010, 04:24:48 PM »
I agree that what's good for one is good for all either way but what is your point in your hypothetical "everybody folding" scenario?  I mean, are you for or against people folding when not against a bet/raise?

Dave_The_Maori

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Re: Folding in Turn
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2010, 05:49:22 PM »
I would warn a player for this sort of behavior because as others have said, it could open the door to a lot of other problems.

As a TD, I try to protect my players (Whether from themselves or from others) whom may try to take advantage. IMO there is no need to fold just like there is no need to call as per the situation provided by Dave Lamb. Therefore, if you can't call, then you can't fold either.

If a player is a repeat offender, that's when I'll choose to penalise under "Unsportsman like behavior", "Bad poker etiquette", or any other reason I find suitable at the time.

So yeah. I'm against it. :)

Luca P.

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Re: Folding in Turn
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2010, 03:57:40 AM »
I have ofter run into this problem.
What I say to my dealers is: don't take folded cards without action to them because this may cause problems to the next actions.
there's no reason to fold if a check occur before, since if the player argue that he doesn't want to show cards at showdown, I would say he could muck.
I could interpret this action as a sort of collusion, player could use it as a form of communication to play together.

Let's put this in prospective:
1) I am the player who folds
-why should I fold if I have the right to muck cards at showdown?
2) I am a player who acts after:
-I see a fold, so I may bet other players out having more chanses to win pot uncontested.

So I definitively don't allow players to fold if checked to them.
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MikeB

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Re: Folding in Turn
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2010, 11:12:10 AM »
Hi Linker: You raise another question which isn't 100% clarified in the rules, and that is whether it is correct to accept a fold from a player during a betting round who's not facing action. Examples include the BB who folds pre-flop on his option when nobody raised the BB, or Dave's example in the OP, or the out-of-turn bettor who folds when there's been no bet. From all discussions I've had on this issue, I feel the current thinking is that these folds should be accepted (and binding), except perhaps in a low-stakes or charity event.  A comprehensive rule on this issue would address ALL of these questions in one rule: a) is a non-pressured fold during a betting round binding; b) is it a violation and thus subject to warning or penalty; c) clarify the rules for a face-down muck at showdown; and d) clarify that the verbal statement "fold" has no meaning at showdown (once all final round betting is complete and it's time to read cards).
« Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 12:17:02 PM by MikeB »

Nick C

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Re: Folding in Turn
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2010, 11:50:20 AM »
Dave,
 I have to agree with Jasper Too. I will go one further and say that it is one of the worst actions that any player can make. It offers no protection to others and is clearly unacceptable in any game with experienced players. When I try to explain this situation to my students, I use a Stud game as an example. There are three players left in the hand and the river card has just been dealt. Player in the 3 seat is high with two open pair (7's and 3's). He checks. Player 2 has an open ended straight flush on board and misses everything. He folds. Player 3 has Aces full. Player 3 now bets because Player 2 folded on a check! If you can't recognize this as a violation of poker etiquette then you will leave yourself open to all kinds of problems. I personally think that it should be a rule.The only options open to a player, not facing a bet, are to check or bet. Folding is the action of an amatuer. Period.