Author Topic: Error right? Ruling on inattentive player making wrong betting action.  (Read 8253 times)

Guillaume Gleize

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Hello,

Late in a "friendly tournament" inside a club (63 players - 50 - 9 players ITM - 1000 for the winner) I think I took a wrong decision (the fact I was tired and influenced by the friendly atmosphere are good excuses? ... no? ... ok sorry so lol!):

Blinds 1.000-2.000
Preflop
Player A in middle position open the bets saying "10.000!" and pushing it in the middle  
Player B in late positon didn't pay attention (watching another table) and says "4.000!" pushing 4.000 in the middle
The other players explain him that it's a short call ...
Player B says "ooops sorry so I fold", taking back his 4.000 and throwing his cards faces down 8 inches forward (clearly away from the muck) ...

Called by the players, I thought player B didn't know the rule and told him his 4.000 could'nt be taken back but that he could fold loosing it or complete with 6.000 to call the 10.000 bet ... wich he did!

I think I was wrong and simply I should have killed his hand and make him loose the 4.000 right?

Horrible detail: both were big stacks but player B eliminated player A on this hand .... oooops!

GG

« Last Edit: November 15, 2010, 11:24:54 AM by MikeB »

Stuart Murray

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Re: Error right?
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2010, 10:28:36 AM »
hi GG,

yeh, i'd say you should of forced him to leave the 4,000 in and announced his hand dead, but then it's easy on a forum, were all infallible, so don't worry about it too much, everyone makes mistakes!

Regards
Stuart

MikeB

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Re: Error right?
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2010, 11:23:06 AM »
Hello,
Late in a "friendly tournament" inside a club (63 players - 50 - 9 players ITM - 1000 for the winner) I think I took a wrong decision (the fact I was tired and influenced by the friendly atmosphere are good excuses? ... no? ... ok sorry so lol!):
Blinds 1.000-2.000
Preflop
Player A in middle position open the bets saying "10.000!" and pushing it in the middle  
Player B in late positon didn't pay attention (watching another table) and says "4.000!" pushing 4.000 in the middle
The other players explain him that it's a short call ...
Player B says "ooops sorry so I fold", taking back his 4.000 and throwing his cards faces down 8 inches forward (clearly away from the muck) ...
Called by the players, I thought player B didn't know the rule and told him his 4.000 could'nt be taken back but that he could fold loosing it or complete with 6.000 to call the 10.000 bet ... wich he did!
I think I was wrong and simply I should have killed his hand and make him loose the 4.000 right?
Horrible detail: both were big stacks but player B eliminated player A on this hand .... oooops!

GG
GG; Under which specific rule(s) do you feel you made an error? Are you pointing to a TDA Rule, or a RROP Rule or a House Rule??  Thanks !

JasperToo

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Re: Error right?
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2010, 12:54:06 PM »
I understand people are supposed to be paying attention but from the description player B thought he was the one opening the pot for the 4000.  He clearly hadn't seen the action in front and should be able to pull his bet back and reconsider his action (which is what he did).  At least according to TDA rules.  Of course, any specific house rule (WSOP rules have this too don't they?) that says he has to leave the chips in the middle under those circumstances would mean he would have to leave them in but why would we declare his hand dead?  Wasn't the fold made based on bad information? The player thought he had the option to retract his chips (TDA rules) but since he didn't he wouldn't have folded, or at least he should have the option of folding rather than declaring it dead.

I think that since his hand was clearly still retrievable and he was given the option to complete or fold, with the call left in the pot, that it was actually a proper decision. I think it was not an error Guillaume!

Dave_The_Maori

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Re: Error right? Ruling on inattentive player making wrong betting action.
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2010, 02:03:33 PM »
Hi GG.

I would be more inclined to agree with Stuart as he did say "I fold" and finished the action by releasing his hand in a forward motion.

As for you being right or wrong, I would say that your decision is final and therefore is always right!

Except when it's not :)

Nick C

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Re: Error right? Ruling on inattentive player making wrong betting action.
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2010, 07:43:05 AM »
It sounds like a misunderstanding. I think if the action was stopped before another player acted, then the player should be able to retract his bet. If substantial action followed, then it is too late.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2010, 12:57:29 PM by Nick C »

Dave_The_Maori

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Re: Error right? Ruling on inattentive player making wrong betting action.
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2010, 06:20:51 PM »
It sounds like a misunderstanding. I think if the action was stopped before another player acted, then the player should be able to retract his bet. If substantial action followed, then it is too late.

So if the next actor called the wrong amount would then both players wrong amounts be returned?

I would be more inclined to punish this sort of inattention and remind the players that they are responsible for their actions. Especially in small towns/cities such as mine, you can appreciate how fast this sort of behaviour can spread amongst players. In that respect, I would rather my poker brand be known as the official (Strict) inforcer of poker etiquette where every player will be judged by the same standards. I can understand that new players should be nurtured, but my players seem to blur the line between inexperienced and inattention.

But that's just me :)

DCJ001

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Re: Error right? Ruling on inattentive player making wrong betting action.
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2010, 08:44:07 PM »
It sounds like a misunderstanding. I think if the action was stopped before another player acted, then the player should be able to retract his bet. If substantial action followed, then it is too late.

So if the next actor called the wrong amount would then both players wrong amounts be returned?

I would be more inclined to punish this sort of inattention and remind the players that they are responsible for their actions. Especially in small towns/cities such as mine, you can appreciate how fast this sort of behaviour can spread amongst players. In that respect, I would rather my poker brand be known as the official (Strict) inforcer of poker etiquette where every player will be judged by the same standards. I can understand that new players should be nurtured, but my players seem to blur the line between inexperienced and inattention.

But that's just me :)

I agree, somewhat, that rules are important. I believe that players who are unfamiliar with the rules should learn the rules when they makes mistakes, and when rules are applied to penalize and to act as deterrents against future rule breaks.

But, if you would like to be known as the "enforcer," it's a good idea to spell the word correctly.

Nick C

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Re: Error right? Ruling on inattentive player making wrong betting action.
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2010, 08:49:37 AM »
Dave, if another player called the wrong amount, I would have to assume that the original bet was unclear. Where was the dealer?  A good dealer should make sure that the amount of each bet is clear and understood, If the wrong amount is placed into the pot, it should be corrected before another player reacts. The intent of the players should always be considered. Rules are necessary, but they are there to protect players, too.

Dave_The_Maori

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Re: Error right? Ruling on inattentive player making wrong betting action.
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2010, 01:45:53 PM »
Thanx for the feedback.

Both of you make valid points and I can see where Nick is coming from. In the interests of fair play and integrity to the game, I submit that this judgement should be left to the TD/HD in charge and Dealers should be in full control of the hand.

Thanx DCJ001 for pointing out my spelling mistake (That made me smile). I'll try to pay closer attention to the red line under the words :)

DCJ001

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Re: Error right? Ruling on inattentive player making wrong betting action.
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2010, 02:02:41 PM »
Thanx DCJ001 for pointing out my spelling mistake (That made me smile). I'll try to pay closer attention to the red line under the words :)

I just figured that, if you get a hat or shirt with the word "Enforcer" on it, it should be spelled correctly.

I'm glad that you took my suggestion as I had meant for it to be taken, and that you smiled.