Author Topic: Mucked All in Hand Pre-Flop with action pending  (Read 11151 times)

thecove

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Mucked All in Hand Pre-Flop with action pending
« on: November 15, 2010, 11:51:40 AM »
Hi all,

I run a 18 player points league that plays 8 events over 8 months with the league championship at the end. This past weekend we played a league favorite, a NLHE Short Handed Shootout.

With three tables going, I was at the main table when I was called over to make a ruling at an outer table in another room.

This is what I was able to recreate from dealer/ player accounts. Playing 6 handed. Pre-flop, action is folded to the cutoff who pushes all in. Button folds, small blind takes a minute and then says "take it" and mucks his cards. Original raiser in the cutoff mucks her hand thinking the hand was over. The dealer, obviously running on auto-pilot, pulls those hands into the muck. Meanwhile the Big Blind, who had yet to act, protests saying "whoa whoa what happened? it's my action!" He then throws his cards into the muck, thinking since he had the last live hand on the table the pot is his. He never declared his intent to call or fold though he claimed to have AJ.

To make matters far worse, the dealer takes the entire muck and stacks it neatly in front of him is if about to shuffle a new hand.

Of course this is when I get called for a decision to be made on a table that looks like it's getting ready to deal a hand yet there are chips in the middle. Beautiful.

I obviously cannot pull the all in or big blind hand out the deck.

At this point what to I do?

Can I declare a misdeal? I don't think I can with action pending, even though there is really only one action from the cutoff's all in.

Do I award the pot to the cutoff player since her action was never answered?

Do I award the pot to the big blind since he was technically the last player with cards at the end of the hand?

Thanks!


AleaLeedsCardRoom

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Re: Mucked All in Hand Pre-Flop with action pending
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2010, 12:37:44 PM »
As the dealer didn't much her hand she did, you would be hard pressed giving the BB the call amount of her all in and returning her the rest of her stack.  Returning the chips is tricky too as it could be an angle shoot, try to steal the blinds, realise you might get called and "mistakenly" muck your hand.  I think that the BB would get asm uch of her stack as he can cover, which means if he has more then she would be eliminated.  A tough call to make and enforce.  The BB having AJ isnt really an issue as without a hand to oppose him he could call with any two and take the pot at show down by having the only live hand.

These are my thoughts :)  But as I said, a tough call to make and even tougher to enforce!!

Lewis

thecove

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Re: Mucked All in Hand Pre-Flop with action pending
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2010, 12:57:06 PM »
Thanks Lewis.

That's ultimately what I did. The BB had the all in player covered and I awarded the chips to the BB, thus eliminating the all in player.

She wasn't happy about it but I explained to her the ruling and why it was ultimately her responsibility to protect her hand and follow the action. She realized her mistake as well.

I really didn't want to make that ruling since she had a claim to the pot and was all in but there was no way to clearly identify her hand.

Later I spoke to the dealer about calling for a decision when basically there was no decision to be made since I could not back out any hands or action since the dealer already re-stacked the deck. I reminded him that he should have stopped everything at the table the second there was a problem and then call for a floor ruling.

JasperToo

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Re: Mucked All in Hand Pre-Flop with action pending
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2010, 01:04:57 PM »
This is why I remind players to hang on to their hand until the dealer pushes the pot to them.  Make it a trade, my chips for your cards Dealer!  But since she needed to protect her cards and didn't and the BB was technically the last one with a hand, I think you made the right decision and the Cut off player learned a tough lesson.

As a dealer, it is easy to go on autopilot but we need to be vigilante of the action so that when a player in the cut off in this situation folds the hand in that manner, the dealer would be able to protect the muck, and essentially the hand.  Then the dealer would be able to say "you have a player behind you" and allow the cut off to grab her cards.  Of course then you may have had an altogether different reason to be called to the table when the big blind screams "She mucked her cards already!!"

AleaLeedsCardRoom

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Re: Mucked All in Hand Pre-Flop with action pending
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2010, 01:58:31 PM »
Exactly, my cards for those chips is an excellant way of wording it!!  Also I agree that the dealer should keep the cards to one side and then call the floor, this way the floor can at least CONSIDER giving the player their cards back.

Stuart Murray

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Re: Mucked All in Hand Pre-Flop with action pending
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2010, 04:22:25 PM »
I hear what Lewis is saying, but for me the only way to proceed is as per a hand that has been killed by the dealer mistakingly.  I'd give the amount of the BB to the BB player from the Cut-off's stack and return the rest (the raise portion) to them as the BB didn't act.  It would be different if the BB had announced call before it was realised.

Also remember from RROP that states "once action has occured a misdeal cannot be called, action is considered to occur when 2 people have acted on their hand" which includes 2 people passing pre-flop.

Regards
Stuart
« Last Edit: November 15, 2010, 04:25:50 PM by Stuart Murray »

Dave Lamb

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Re: Mucked All in Hand Pre-Flop with action pending
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2010, 05:14:15 PM »


I am 100% with Stuart on this one. While there may be a bit more information we are missing, I am certain that the dealer should have intervened when the SB said "Take it". The BB still gets the best of it here, no guarantee AJ would have called or won.

MikeB

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Re: Mucked All in Hand Pre-Flop with action pending
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2010, 06:51:42 PM »
This hand is one more example that the number one cause of problems at the table is people throwing their cards around. It's especially bad when they do so thinking that a pot will soon be pushed their way.

MaxH

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Re: Mucked All in Hand Pre-Flop with action pending
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2010, 07:13:26 AM »
I agree with Stuart as the hand was not called.
Best,
Max