Author Topic: Simple "Burn & Turn"  (Read 7768 times)

Martin L. Waller

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Simple "Burn & Turn"
« on: October 28, 2010, 08:41:21 AM »
I got in trouble for this and may have lost a player. Itís a simple ďburn & turnĒ.

Three players, the last player to act has his cards completely covered with his hands. The dealer does a burn & turn on the Turn. The last player then brings it to the dealerís attention that he hadnít acted.

I told the dealer to take the Turn card and place it with the burns. Then, take what would have been the next burn and make it the Turn. They bet and then the next card was placed as the River without an additional burn.

IMO this removed the Turn that was dealt early and kept the River the card it would have been if nothing had gone wrong.

How would you have handled it?

Thanks for your comments.

Good luck,

Stuart Murray

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Re: Simple "Burn & Turn"
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2010, 09:21:41 AM »
Hi Martin,  In the event that it is a premature turn card, and not a player failing to call time, the premature turn card get laid aside and then the river and river burn are placed face down on the table before shuffling the premature turn card back into the stub and reissuing the turn without burning, the river can then be issued after fourth street betting is complete, keeping the correct card for the river.  RROP is specific in that any errors are corrected in a way that changes as little of the board as possible, the turn whether you make the river the turn and issue a new river or reshuffle the turn and issue a new turn the premature turn card has to go back into the stub and be reshuffled so it has a chance to play again.

Relevant rules for board errors below


1. Once action begins, a misdeal cannot be called. The deal will be played, and no money will be returned to any player whose hand is fouled. In button games, action is considered to occur when two players after the blinds have acted on their hands. In stud games, action is considered to occur when two players after the forced bet have acted on their hands.
15. If the dealer prematurely deals any cards before the betting is complete, those cards will not play, even if a player who has not acted decides to fold.
16. If the dealer fails to burn a card or burns more than one card, the error should be corrected if discovered before betting action has started for that round. Once action has been taken on a boardcard, the card must stand. Whether the error is able to be corrected or not, subsequent cards dealt should be those that would have come if no error had occurred. For example, if two cards were burned, one of the cards should be put back on the deck and used for the burncard on the next round. On the last round, if there was no betting because a player was all-in, the error should be corrected if discovered before the pot has been awarded, provided the deck stub, boardcards, and burncards are all sufficiently intact to determine the proper replacement card.

Nick C

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Re: Simple "Burn & Turn"
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2010, 03:04:30 PM »
Martin and Stuart,

 The premature card can not play, as you both have stated. However, I have only used the following method of solving the problem of a premature turn card;
 a.) The card will be set off to the side....
 b.) The skipped player will act on his hand. He may call a bet in front of him, he may initiate a bet if it is checked to him, he may raise if the limit on raises is still open to him, or he may fold if there is a bet in front of him.
 c.) After the skipped player has acted, the dealer will burn the proper (river burn) and place the proper river card in the turn cards position.
 d.) The next round of betting will begin and (if necessary) the turn card, that was set aside, will be shuffled into the deck stub (not a standard shuffle, being careful not to lift or expose any cards). The dealer will then place the river card on the board without a burn.

 I don't believe that the proper cards were used in Martin's method. I like Stuarts method, but placing the river burn, and the proper river card off to the side and then mixing the exposed turn card into the stub might be a waste of time. Example; what if after the dealer goes through this process, the skipped player raises and the other players fold? I also don't like the idea of the river, and river burn being on the table because this defeats the purpose of the burn card protecting the back of the cards.

I have used the above method and I've been surprised at how many times there is a bet after the turn card and everyone folds, so there is no need to go through a reshuffle. The best story was when this exact error occured in a limit game ($10 and $20). I was called over to the table and told the dealer to proceed by replacing the turn with the proper river. The next betting round commenced and the dealer reshuffled and put the same card that he prematurely exposed as the river card. We won't always get that lucky.