Author Topic: accidently seeing neighbor's hand  (Read 6511 times)

mooredog

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accidently seeing neighbor's hand
« on: October 16, 2010, 06:51:09 AM »
A player calls preflop with 4 players already in hand and his neighbor also calls while saying "I can see your cards." Does this come under not protecting your hand? Do the other players now have to be shown the hand since the one player has knowledge no other player has?

AleaLeedsCardRoom

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Re: accidently seeing neighbor's hand
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2010, 10:00:52 AM »
This does come under protecting your own hand, but also every player has a responsibility to protect the integrity and sportmanship of the game, and so shouldn't really be in any position to see the others cards, unless they have looked at them in a silly way. 
As to showing the other players the two cards, this is a difficult one as you will put the owner of the cards at a disadvantage when he may not be aware that he is showing his cards etc. 
Would anyone consider killing the hand of the person who has seen the others cards?  I mean if the owner does everything possible to ensure another player doesn't see but some one does, would it be fair to say that the offender went out of their way to see the cards and so should be punished??

Lewis

mooredog

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Re: accidently seeing neighbor's hand
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2010, 01:54:04 PM »
the offender (person who saw the hand) was just looking out to the game and the player held his hand out to far. the offender definitely was not trying to see the cards and even brought it to the other player's attention at the time so he knew to protect them better in the future

Nick C

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Re: accidently seeing neighbor's hand
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2010, 02:07:10 PM »
Mooredog,
 That is a good one. I have to agree with Lewis. It's one of those situations that needs to be addressed. The dealer should give a warning to the player accidentally exposing their hand, but that doesn't help the other players that did not see the hand. Most of the time, a player that catches a glimpse of another players hand does not announce the fact to the table. If the action is repeated, or found to be deliberate, the "floor" is obligated to take action. What can you do? If the hand were seen on a later round of betting, the floor might announce that there will be no more betting and the best hand wins. The fact that this happened pre-flop makes it a tough one for me to call. You really can't expose his hand to everyone (I don't think), but, beyond a warning I don't know of a rule that covers this. If the player were to fold on the next round, I would expose the hand for all to see. However, if the player remains in the hand???
 Lewis raises an interesting point. Who was to blame? Did the player deliberately show the hand? Did the other player go out of his way to "sneak a peak?" Giving a warning is easy, what to do if it continues will make for interesting discussion.

RobinK

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Re: accidently seeing neighbor's hand
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2010, 09:25:07 PM »
Hi all,

 Since the player who saw the opponents hand has announced it to the table, everyone knew about his advantage. If the betting was completed for that round, I would ask the player, who was not protecting his hand, to expose his cards to all remaining players. He would have to finish the hand with a disadvantage of playing with exposed hand. All players, who are still in the hand, would have the same information for upcoming betting rounds. I would not limit or close the betting for the hand. I would not penalize any of the two players. Playing with exposed cards is already a big penalty. I would advice the player to better protect his hand in the future.

Regards

 RK

Nick C

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Re: accidently seeing neighbor's hand
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2010, 03:24:01 AM »
RobinK,
 I agree that seeing an opponents hand gives a player an unfair advantage over other players. However, I see no way to force a player to expose his cards to the table because another player says he saw them. Barring an extreme situation where a player is obviously not protecting his hand and exposing his cards deliberately, I do not agree with showing the cards to everyone. What if the player saw the cards, but did not see them good enough to identify them? Are we going to call the floor, tell them what you saw, then ask the player if those are the cards he has? What if they turn out to be different? This situation can only be controlled by a good dealer and players that respect the integrity of the game. I've played in, and dealt in many games where players will tell another player to "watch your cards, I can see them," or a similar statement. I've also caught glimpses of cards that were not what I thought they were.

 Security for poker games is up to all who play the game. The floor, dealers and players all have a responsibility to protect the integrity of the game. If players are deliberately exposing their cards, or become repeat offenders, then drastic measures should be taken  Players seeing the hole cards of others is a very comon occurence that we need to guard against. I think the intent of the players is the issue.

Guillaume Gleize

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Re: accidently seeing neighbor's hand
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2010, 04:17:41 AM »
Hello,

Let's say player A says he saw the cards of player B in the middle of a round.

CASE 1: first time it happens at the table.

I let the round & and hand keep going on normally with no warning nor exposition of any hand. I explain to the table that player A may be wrong about what he saw so we can't penalize player B. For the same reason, player A may have got no advantage on the round ... and maybe disadvantage!

CASE 2: it happens for the second time at the table.

I ask player A to tell me in private the hand he saw (unless he allready tell it clearly to all the table in wich case I skip this step). I check in private the hand of player B. BUT I FIRST LET THE HAND KEEP ON GOING ON UNTIL THE END FOR THE FOLLOWING REASON:
If I only expose the cards if they are the exact one I will give an advantage to player A in case I don't expose it: he knows now that player B don't have thoses cards!
In the case player A told the cards to the full table and If I only expose the cards if they are the exact one I will give an advantage to all the table: they know now that player B don't have thoses cards!

So here also I let the hand finish NORMALY (remember that nobody knows if player A saw the good cards or not) ... and will give a warning to player B after the hand for exposing his cards IF IT WAS SAME CARDS THAT PLAYER A SAW.

...

Still don't pretend this is the right way to rule it ... I just rule it that way untill the TDA tell me another way.

Best regards,
GG






 

Nick C

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Re: accidently seeing neighbor's hand
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2010, 06:37:23 AM »
Guillaume,
 I'm not in favor of asking the player what the cards were, that he claims to have seen. I will repeat what I wrote earlier and then I will make one other suggestion.

 Security for poker games is up to all who play the game. The floor, dealers and players all have a responsibility to protect the integrity of the game. If players are deliberately exposing their cards, or become repeat offenders, then drastic measures should be taken  Players seeing the hole cards of others is a very comon occurence that we need to guard against. I think the intent of the players is the issue.

 It would be highly unethical to kill any players hand based on the situations that we are discussing. I mentioned taking drastic measures if actions of these players was deliberate. If I had reason to beleive that the actions gave an advantage to either player, I would declare the offending player, or players, ALL-IN (excluding them from any more betting), and allow the remaining players to continue competing for the pot and any side pot that they create.

   
 
 
 

Guillaume Gleize

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Re: accidently seeing neighbor's hand
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2010, 10:02:12 AM »
First point: 99% of the time it NEVER happens twice at the same table in a tournament so we only stick with case & solution 1!

Second point: I also do not like the solution 2 but in the VERY RARE times we had to use it: everybody around the table appreciated it!

Third point: with all respect for you, we will stay with our method until the TDA officialy gives us another solution or at least a majority of you!
(but we are ready to follow you all and change our rules if this happen in the very next posts!)

 ;)

GG

« Last Edit: October 18, 2010, 10:49:45 AM by Guillaume Gleize »

Martin L. Waller

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Re: accidently seeing neighbor's hand
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2010, 09:24:59 AM »
Hi fellows,

When I first read Nick C.ís line about declaring them all-in, I liked it. But, I probably wonít use it.

I would let the hand play out. The other player may have seen ďaĒ card or may have even not seen the whole card. It might just know it was a red card and not know the rank. He was just trying to help the other player.

If it did happen again, I know that it is rare, but if it did, I would warn the player that he could be penalized for not protecting his hand.

Again, I donít remember anything like this continuing to be a problem. Once it is brought to a playerís attention it has always been corrected.

Good luck,
Martin