Author Topic: dead hand or not?  (Read 10368 times)

RobinK

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dead hand or not?
« on: September 16, 2010, 12:08:29 PM »
 In the tournament play . . . . . . after the flop was dealt the player A bets 3000 , the only remaining  player (player B) calls. The player B is novice and does not know
 all the rules of poker. Neither of the players is all-in. Right after the player B makes a call he exposes his cards and pushes them forward over the betting line.
 The player A started to shout, that players B hand is dead , because it was folded.
  Shortly after I came to the table. The dealer explained to me what happend. When I came to the table, the player B was holding to his cards and they were placed
behind the betting line, next to his remaining stack. I have explained to the player B, that he should not expose his cards until he is asked by dealer to do so or he might
 recieve a penalty. However I have ruled his hand live and let him to finish the game with a disadvantage of playing with exposed cards. I have told to the player A, that player B
 was not facing any bet at the time he exposed his hand. The dealer did not warn him to keep his cards outside of betting area and do not expose them.

 Player A bet after the turn and player B folded, however later on the player A was complaining that my decision was not right.
 Can you please share your opinions on this situation. Thank you

 Regards   RobinK

 

pokerfish

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Re: dead hand or not?
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2010, 12:43:22 PM »
Your decision was spot on.... his hand is not dead even if he'd done this intentionally to gain information, which clearly is not the case here. When someone exposes his hand prematurely, his hand plays out and he may receive a penalty after the hand is over and the pot awarded. Here, clearly, it is an error by a player who doesn't know the rules. I would try to do everything to educate him, rather than penalize him and run him off. Poker needs new players and he is exactly who we have rules to protect rather than to hurt with them.
Jan Fisher
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RobinK

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Re: dead hand or not?
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2010, 01:34:36 PM »
 Thank you for your answer.
 
 I forgot to mention, that we have tables with betting line. Our house rules says, your hand will be folded ( dead ) in case you throw or push your cards over the betting line, while facing a bet. Or when action is pending and one or both of your cards are left unprotected in the betting area ( over the betting line).
 Some of the players are used to different rules from different places, such as "your hand is dead everytime when you push it over the line". No matter if face up or down.
 No matter, if facing the bet or not. In my opinion, this is to strict and often creates more disputes then it solves.

  Your opinions pls.

pokerfish

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Re: dead hand or not?
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2010, 10:50:00 PM »
Personally, I don't like betting lines as the rules often are ambiguous. Even with your rule, your player was not facing a bet! And which rule(s) will take precedent, the TDA or house? It's up to you but you need to make your players aware when there is a difference, which rule(s) will be used. I think that a hand automatically being dead when over the line is not good as sometimes the line is too close to a player's chips.... or depending on where you are seated, you have more or less room. A protected hand should never be killed even if it's across the table!
Jan
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AleaLeedsCardRoom

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Re: dead hand or not?
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2010, 11:13:35 AM »
We use a betting line and I am constantly telling players that it is a BETTING line not a FOLDING line so just because cards go over the line it does not instantly mean they are folded!!!

Lewis

pokerfish

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Re: dead hand or not?
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2010, 11:29:44 AM »
I like it.... but am always confused when playing with a betting line since the rules are not consistent. Can I come across the line with a stack and cut out a bet or do I have to bet them all? Even if it's one motion etc.... also, some players check with chips in their hands.... I hate always having to know exactly which way a CR does it. That said, I like rules and structure and if it works for you, I'm all for it!
Jan
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DCJ001

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Re: dead hand or not?
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2010, 04:45:39 PM »
The "dead hand" thought is one of those rumors that has gotten spread by word of mouth because a lot of people just believe what they hear.

TDA rule # 42 says:

Exposing Cards
A player who exposes his cards with action pending may incur a penalty, but will not have a dead hand. The penalty will begin at the end of the hand.

In the 2010 WSOP, multiple players exposed their hands with action pending. Here's how one of those hands played out:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4074973/Theo%20Tran%20Exposed%20Hand.mov
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 05:09:35 PM by DCJ001 »

Stuart Murray

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Re: dead hand or not?
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2010, 05:25:29 PM »
Killing an exposed hand is something that has gone out of fashion nowadays, although I believe the WPT still use it as a rule in tournament play.

Rules in keeping with TDA standards would never kill a prematurely or even deliberately exposed holding, instead opting for a penalty after the hand is complete, as killing the hand is not in the best interests of tournament play.

Your decision IMO was spot on.  With regard to the betting line, it is just that "a BETTING line" however I'm with Jan that Betting Line rules vary widely between establishments.  I myself do not recognise betting lines in tournament play, even where they exist in casinos I use with chip release being my standard for betting and raising rather as forward motion.

Best Regards
Stuart
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 05:28:35 PM by Stuart Murray »