Author Topic: Disclose contents of live or folded hands  (Read 28129 times)

DCJ001

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Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« on: September 19, 2010, 09:44:04 PM »
During a WPT main event, the following occurred:



One perspective is that this is common table chatter.

Another perspective is that the player who said that he had an ace, in order to get a reaction from the other player or for any other reason, while the action was incomplete, violated a TDA rule:

41. No Disclosure

Players are obligated to protect the other players in the tournament at all times. Therefore, players, whether in the hand or not, may not:

1. Disclose contents of live or folded hands,
2. Advise or criticize play at any time,
3. Read a hand that hasn't been tabled.

The one-player-to-a-hand rule will be enforced.


What's your opinion? Thanks.

chet

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Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2010, 10:46:27 PM »
My opinion:

His actions are in violation of the TDA rule you quoted.  He should have received at least a warning, if not a penalty. 

That said, the camera has, in some cases, caused actions which violate a rule to be overlooked if it makes for more interesting TV.
There are many instances where a rule has not been enforced at televised events which would be enforced if the event were not on TV.  Unfortunately, such is life.

Hope this helps!!

DCJ001

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Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2010, 11:31:41 AM »
My opinion:

His actions are in violation of the TDA rule you quoted.  He should have received at least a warning, if not a penalty. 

That said, the camera has, in some cases, caused actions which violate a rule to be overlooked if it makes for more interesting TV.
There are many instances where a rule has not been enforced at televised events which would be enforced if the event were not on TV.  Unfortunately, such is life.

Hope this helps!!

Unfortunately, in my opinion, hands like this only become more interesting for TV because rules have been broken.

This particular hand occurred on day 1 of the event. Although the WPT has begun filming hands as early as day 1, this hand was probably not captured for TV.

Nick C

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Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2010, 02:14:24 PM »
 I think the fact that there were only two players in the hand, and one was all-in, and there was still another card to come, make this nothing more than table talk. It is not like a player had a nut hand and was trying to bait the other player. I think that the same action, with other players involved, and/ or all community cards on the board, would bring a penalty, but I don't see anything wrong with what Eric Buchman did. He had the worst hand (with a big draw), and got there.
 I have a tendency to be more lenient when there are anly two players involved in a hand.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 08:23:26 PM by Nick C »

chet

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Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2010, 02:26:24 PM »
Nick:

I don't necessarily disagree with the concept being different when players are heads up, but that is not the way the rule is written. 

If the TDA wants to adopt a different version of Rule 41 for heads up play so be it and it can certainly be proposed for the next TDA Summit.  In the meantime, the rule does not accommodate different interpretations depending upon the number of players. 

One of the reasons Matt, Linda, Jan and Dave got together and created the TDA in the first place was to bring consistency to the interpretation of the rules for tournament poker.  There is nothing wrong with different interpretations, but there is a definite problem when the interpretations are inconsistent.  Therefore, I suggest this be discussed at the next Summit and the members can decide.

Hope this helps!!

Nick C

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Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2010, 03:07:33 PM »
Chet,
 I applaud what the TDA has accomplished. I will continue to make my feelings known if it will improve the integrity of the game. The subject that we are discussing is a perfect example why some rules have to be clarified.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 03:14:42 PM by Nick C »

DCJ001

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Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2010, 03:11:52 PM »
I think the fact that there were only two players in the hand, and one was all-in, and there was still another card to come, make this nothing more than table talk. It is not like a player had a nut hand and was trying to bait the other player. I think that a warning that the same action with other players involved, or all community cards on the board, would bring a penalty. I don't see anything wrong with what Eric Buchman did. He had the worst hand (with a big draw), and got there.
 I have a tendency to be more lenient when there are anly two players involved in a hand.

The question is not about what Buchanan did. Buchanan asked the other player if he had an ace. While the other player was considering whether or not to call Buchanan's all in, the other player said that he did have an ace, possibly/probably looking to get a reaction from Buchanan.

So you believe that, as long as it's heads up in a tournament, players can disclose their holdings and maybe even show their hands while the action is incomplete?

Nick C

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Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2010, 03:20:38 PM »
No, not in all situations. In the situation described in the original question then I would say, yes it's okay.

DCJ001

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Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2010, 04:30:01 PM »
No, not in all situations. In the situation described in the original question then I would say, yes it's okay.

Are you saying that disclosing and showing cards with incomplete action while heads up in a multi table tournament is okay, despite the following rules saying otherwise:

41. No Disclosure

Players are obligated to protect the other players in the tournament at all times. Therefore, players, whether in the hand or not, may not:

1. Disclose contents of live or folded hands,
2. Advise or criticize play at any time,
3. Read a hand that hasn't been tabled.

The one-player-to-a-hand rule will be enforced.

Or are you saying that the rules should be changed from what they are?
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 04:57:55 PM by DCJ001 »

Nick C

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Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2010, 07:08:40 PM »
DCJ001,

 I'm not saying that at all. I'm trying to point out that many of the rules are not intended for the situations that we try to use them for. I think that the disclosure rules are for players that show cards to a player (when there is still action pending and all players have not seen the cards), or they announce what they had when they folded. These are serious issues. I don't think that is the same situation as described in the initial question. Remember, one player is all-in and there is still a card to come. The hand was not complete in any way. I wonder if it would have made a difference if Eric Buchman went all-in, then turned his cards over for his opponent to see before he called?

DCJ001

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Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2010, 10:43:26 PM »
Nick.

I, respectfully, believe that you're confusing what is allowable in home games or fast and loose bar or club games with they way that things should be in organized tournaments in reputable casinos, such the WSOP, WSOPE, WSOP Circuit, WPT, etc.

Quite often, when debating issues like this, people have opposing views and, no matter how many examples or explanations are given by either side, many people still stubbornly hold to their positions, myself included.

If you, or anyone, believes that the TDA rules should be written more clearly to apply to specific situations, such as the ones that have been and are discussed in this forum, I encourage everyone to make the suggested changes.

I thank everyone for their opinions and their input.

Guillaume Gleize

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Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2010, 01:27:02 AM »
Hello,

Here I really don't see any major fault!

I work with the rules and THE SPIRIT (goal) of the rules.
The spirit of the "no disclosure" rule is:

1- to stop any collusion between cheating players!
2- to keep the initial spirit of the game of "one hand one player"!
First exemple: a possessor of the nuts on a drawing flop terrorized by possible bad beat would say: "get all away: I got the nuts!"
Second exemple: a possessor of second or third hand hand facing an all-in and while thinking about calling or not would loudly tell his hand trying to get reaction and help not only from his opponent but also from all the other players and spectators!
That's not anymore poker for sure!

Here Buchman asking the question is not himself violating the rule: you can speak, you can ask opponent to show you their cards or underwears!
His question also can be:
- 1st degree (here it's the case: he really wants to now the situation of player B and his odds in case of a call).
- Confusing question (wich is very common : you know thoses players looking afraid and asking if you have such hand ... wich they beat anyway with a monster hand)

... So player B must be very carefull with this kind of question (meaning quite nothing) ...

Here player B answering with "Yeah" is trying to catch any reaction from Buchman and can be
- 1st degree (here it's the case and he actually is very lightly violating the rule of no disclosure)
- Confusing wrong answer (wich is common and legal)

It's only my opinion but:
I really don't see here any MAJOR violaion of the SPIRIT of the rule!

I would give a warning to player B for revealing a part of his hand (the Ace). And would ask (with respect) to Buchman not to try anymore to make the player break the rule and the old and beautifull spirit of poker: ONE HAND - ONE PLAYER!

With my best regards,

GG
« Last Edit: September 21, 2010, 01:30:09 AM by Guillaume Gleize »

Nick C

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Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2010, 12:17:16 PM »
DCJ001,
 I agree that cash games and house games may have different rules from the more sophisticated and organized tournaments. However, I am trying to base my decision on all of the facts that I can gather from the dealer, and the players at the table. Most of the time, the floor is not present when an irregularity takes place at a table. As I look over the original question, I can honestly say that I see nothing wrong with any of the actions of either player. I will try to break it down logically, based on head to head action. If Eric Buchman went all-in and then exposed his hand before the opposing player called;
           1) His hand would still be live.
           2) His action would affect no other player.
Other rules of non-disclosure are very serious violations of poker etiquette and deserve stiff penalties or even expulsion from the game. In my opinion, any player showing his hand to one active player and not another. Even exposing a single card, or discusing what was discarded is far more damaging and could alter the outcome of a hand.

 The rules of the TDA are great rules for all cardrooms to follow. I think that we can find a way, to list some examples along with each rule to help clarify specific situations that the rule is intended for. Not necessarily change it, or even amend it, just be more specific.
 
Nice discusion.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 02:51:08 PM by Nick C »

DCJ001

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Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2010, 11:52:33 AM »
Well, I was going to stop beating this dead horse. But I thought that, maybe, I'd get Matt Savage's opinion on this hand.

Matt said:
Quote
Well he definitely broke the rule and would not have a dead hand but should be subjected to a one round penalty.

Matt

Nick C

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Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2010, 03:58:35 PM »
I'll go along with that. I often wonder how they handle all those penalties when the games are down to only a few people. I was never a big fan of penalties in later rounds of tournaments, especially when that player is sitting out, and the next player eliminated puts him in the money.